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STG-44, MP 43 and MP 44

Discussion in 'Small Arms and Edged Weapons' started by TacticalTank, Jan 31, 2011.

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  1. TacticalTank

    TacticalTank Member

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    I was wondering if anyone was smart enough to explain to me the difference between the STG 44 the MP 43 and MP 44, if someone could answer this it would be GREATLY appreciated.
     
  2. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Well, I think that you will find that it was developed under the term "machine pistol (MP)" to keep it a secret from Hitler himself, he had decreed that no new "rifles" would be designed or produced, but the improvement of machine pistols was allowed. He didn't know that the weapon was in production as a rifle until a commander (when asked), asked for more of the "new rifles".

    Here is a pretty good link on the weapon.

    Goto:

    Modern Firearms - Mp-43 MP-44 Stg.44

    A case of "the name was changed to protect the innocent", from the fearless leader.
     
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  3. sf_cwo2

    sf_cwo2 Member

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    That site, linked above, has an error. The StG 44 did away with the muzzle threads.
     
  4. marc780

    marc780 Member

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    The STG 44 was a walther design, the other, the MP43 a mauser design, the walther design (the got dropped in favor of the mauser design (as it was less complex to make or for some other reasons known only to german ordnance) and mp43 to mp44 was a simple change in nomenclature, not in the rifle itself.
    Corrections to my info welcome but i believe that's pretty much how it went.
     
  5. CPL Punishment

    CPL Punishment Member

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    Did Hitler's objection to the "new rifle" derive from the rationalization measures advocated by Albert Speer, or by distrust of reduced power 7.92x33 Kurz? I read both interpretations.

    When Speer took over for Fritz Todt he noted that the Heer had collected a plethora of small arms and a bewildering variety of vehicles that only tended to reduce overall production, confound supply trains and complicate training. What was Speer's attitude to the StG-44? Did he fear its effect on his rationalization program, or did he realize the potential of the concept and actively connive in the deception?
     
  6. TacticalTank

    TacticalTank Member

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    I know pretty much all of this now but if anyone who is under-educated on this topic visit's this thread, I'll throw in some more information.

    The Stg44 and the MP44 were the same weapon, The reason for the different name's was to keep the project in maximum sercracy. Even from the Fuhrer him self. The MP43 was just the earlier model and had a few diffrences from the MP44. The reason they wanted it kept secret from Hitler was because; Hitler loved the mauser 98 so much that when the K98K came out he was in love. He made this weapon the main rifle for the German military. However, Hugo Schemmisier, thought he could do much better and he created the first rifle that had the fully-automatic capabilities of a submachinegun, but the rifle cartridge making it un-stoppable. This weapon was created in late 1944 so it did not have too much affect on the war, most people (including me) think if it was made earlier around 1941, this would have won Germany the war.
     
  7. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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  8. MikeRex

    MikeRex Member

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    Yeah, you've got it wrong. The MKB-42 competition was between Walther and Haenel, not Walther and Mauser. The Haenel MKB-42(H), with its attached, top mounted piston and tilting bolt lockup became the basis for most of the STG-44 design, although sf_cwo2 pointed out to me that the Walther fire control group was recycled and put into the STG-44. In any case, the STG-44 was considered a brainchild of the Haenel corporation and designer Hugo Schmeisser.

    Mauser was not making assault rifles until the STG-45:

    [​IMG]
    Although this design was produced extremely late in the war and probably never saw service.

    Sturmgewehr DNA is everywhere in later small arms. The return spring design of the STG-44 is very similar to the return spring of the FAL and M16. The dust cover of the STG-44 and magazine catch of the STG-45 are duplicated almost exactly in the M16. The HK and CETME rifles were pretty much a straight development from the STG-45. Oddly, lots of people get hung up on supposed similarities between the AK-47 and STG-44 when NATO small arms clearly owe much more to the STG...
     
  9. sf_cwo2

    sf_cwo2 Member

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    I take it you mean the MKb42 (W) was a Walther design while the MKb42 (H) was from Haenel?
     
  10. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Interestingly enough, it seems Hugo Schmeisser also had a hand in the development of the AK-47!
     
  11. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    Although Schemisser was on board as a consultant, Kalashnikov denies he played any significant role in the AK-47 and says the only thing Schmeisser did of note was learning how to drink vodka. That said, Kalashnikov is not what one would call a reliable source.
     
  12. shaba

    shaba recruit

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    IF you look at ak-46 and the ab 46 the ak47 more closely resembles the ab46 not the ak46. it seems kalashniov cribed from bulkin not schmeisser.
     
  13. MikeRex

    MikeRex Member

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    I've been wondering what influence the German engineers had on debugging the stamping process for the AK-47/AKM receiver. The first couple tens or hundreds of thousands (that's a trial run by Russian standards!) of AK-47s had a stamped receiver that didn't work as intended. This led them to switch to a milled receiver until 57ish when they finally got the stamping process to work. Being that the Germans had the most experience with rifle-caliber stamped weapons at that point...

    Does anyone know what subcontractors were involved with STG-44 production?

    I agree with the assessment that the AK-47 is cribbing a lot from the Bulkin design, and I suspect that both designs were cribbing a lot from lend-lease M1 carbines.
     
  14. Jager

    Jager Member

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    The AK47 is slightly different than the STG44. It is safe to say The AK is a unique rifle but it probably wouldnt exist if the STG44 hadnt existed first as it borrows many important features from it. In fact inexperienced people often mistake an STG44 for an AK47 because they are so similar.
     
  15. Jager

    Jager Member

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    I think the better question would be is the STG44 really the worlds first assault rifle? What is the BAR gun exactly? Its a gun that combines the ROF of a smg with a rifle round. In fact BAR stands for Browning Auto Rifle. The gun is often referred to as a LMG but what MG of any type only has a mag capacity of 20 rounds? To me the Bar is the first assault rifle but it was used as a support weapon or MG instead of a battle rifle like the stg44 so it was denied credit. but thats my opinion.
     
  16. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    You must recall when the BAR was designed and produced, WW1 for anti-trench use. I know that Mr. Browning didn’t design the BAR to be an assault weapon in the strictest sense, he designed a weapon which could fire a full sized rifle round automatically, and be light enough to be carried by ONE person. This is why he himself didn't call it a Light Machine Gun, that was put onto the weapon later when it was used in that manner. The weight of the rifle itself, as well as the inconvenience of a larger magazine for firing from the prone position, was perhaps the deciding factor in magazine size. As to the real beginning of the "assault rifle" as a concept and production model has its roots in pre-Soviet/Tzarist Russia. Here is a short paragraph from an online page on the subject.

    The history of the concept of the assault rifle started in the early 1910's, when the famous Russian armorer, col. Fedorov designed a small-bore selective-fire rifle with detachable box magazine. Initially, Fedorow designed a brand new small-caliber 6.5mm cartridge for his rifle, but, due to WW1, switched to the Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka load, which was less powerful than the Russian 7.62x54R and available in quantity. This rifle was aquired by the Russian army in small numbers in 1916 and served (in very limited quantities though) with the Russian and Soviet (Red) Army up to 1925. While the design of the selective-fire rifle was not unique for that time, the concept of the "lightened" cartridge, more suitable for full-auto fire, was new. Also, col.Fedorov invented the idea of infantry weapons families (assault rifle, light machinegun, medium machinegun, vehicle and/or aircraft mounted MGs) based on the same actions and receivers.

    Goto:

    Modern Firearms - Assault Rifles
     
  17. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    There were some ideas and some rifles made befor the StGw, but the StGw was the first real serial produced assault gun. The BAR was a good rifle but never meant to be a assault gun.
     
  18. Jager

    Jager Member

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    Okay but the word anti-trench use? wasnt the german stormtrooper a soldier that specialized in assaulting trenches with smg's? is anti-trench use not an assault role? if the BAR was made for storming trenches then why doesnt it qualify as an assault rifle? The only reason i can conjure is that it was implemented as a support gun to the M-1 Garand standard rifle. and the stg44 recieves its credit because it was implemented as a standard battle rifle. unless there is something else i am missing.
     
  19. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    I believe you are missing my point here. The BAR was intended to use as a single man, mobile machine gun as the trenches were attacked (not to take the trenches themselves), to keep the men without machine guns under fire and with their "heads down" as those with "normal" rifles advanced toward the trenches.

    The idea of "trench sweeping" was the purpose of another American weapon, the Thompson (trench broom). Neither of them saw extensive use before the war (WW1) ended, in fact the first shipment of Thompsons was sitting on the wharf when the Armistice was signed. They weren't sold for years, while the BAR was improved upon and purchased by the US Army.

    Thompson couldn't sell his weapon until he lowered the cyclic rate from nearly 1400 rounds per minute to about 6 or 700, which didn't happen for a bit of time. The first Thompsons could empty a 100 round drum in under 4 seconds, not a very judicious use of ammo. The BAR was designed to support the single shot 30-06 main battle rifle of WW1, it was versatile and robust enough to stay a viable weapon well past its design time. Of course many of John Browning's designs qualify for the term "timeless", since they always did their jobs as designed and the jobs haven't changed that much from start to their replacement.

    The German "trench weapon", which was one of the first (if not the first) submachine gun used was the MP-18 designed by Hugo Schmeisser, but even though it was produced in quantity, only about 25% of those produced in 1918 made it to the "Storm troops" for attacking the trenches before the Armistice, and it is unknown how many actually saw service since the 32-round snail-drum magazine (TM08) was both unreliable and difficult to load. In spite of its spotty record in combat service, the MP-18 is generally recognized as the first mass produced and battle tested submachine gun.

    That doesn't make any of them an "assault rifle", there are Light Machine Guns (BAR), and submachine guns here. Not select fire, intermediate round rifles which large box magazines. The Federov weapon was closer to the true "assault rifle", and pre-dated them all by years if not decades.
     
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  20. Jager

    Jager Member

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    yeah i dont dis agree with the federov as the first assault rifle.
     

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