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T34/85 or Panther

Discussion in 'The Tanks of World War 2' started by Canadian_Super_Patriot, Aug 28, 2005.

  1. Christian Ankerstjerne

    Christian Ankerstjerne Member

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    There weren't any conclusive success stories involving IR Panthers. Therefore, I don't see how it adds any significant value, unless it would have been tested and improved more extensively.
     
  2. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    I have split off the digression (it is in the Announcements section, feel free to go visit ;) ) in the hope that we can get back to the Panther vs T-34/85.

    Ricky
     
  3. trappermike

    trappermike New Member

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    Yes, I too would concede that the Panther was more likely to win a tank verses tank battle with the T34-85.But I still think the Russian tank better in some respects.It had an excellent deisel engine,and the Russian tanks generally had much greater fuel rage.Also being lighter and having wide tracks the tank was able able to traverse poorer ground easier,and the drivetrain was not taxed as much adding to reliability.As for the 85mm gun,the heavier HE charge was probably better for taking out other targets where HE was needed. ;)

    And the tanks were DRIVEN all the way to Berlin,not hauled around on railway cars! :(
     
  4. smeghead phpbb3

    smeghead phpbb3 New Member

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    One on one, I'd choose the Panther, it is a more refined machine with better frontal armor and better armor penetration. Also I'd trust it to be more reliable than any mass produced Russian tank.

    However in a war, I'd choose to produce the T-34/85, simply because it is a more balanced tank. Although it does not have as much frontal armor as the Pz.V, it has much more side and rear armor (twice as much in some places). The German 75mm cannon was better than the soviet 85mm, but not by too large a margin. Overall the T-34/85 is just better value for money...
     
  5. Man

    Man New Member

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    Side and rear armour are not as important as frontal armor - tanks drive into battle facing forward. Both the T-34-85 and the Panthers side and rear armor could be classified as "vulnerable at reasonable ranges" to each other.
     
  6. Blaster

    Blaster New Member

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    RE: T-34 or Panther

    Because the T-34 was the cause of the Panther's inception, I think the Germans were smart enough to build the Panther better than the cause of it's inception. In a war however, I'd probably choose the T-34's production number to be 30% of all the medium tanks I'd produce. The Panther would account for 20%, and I'd leave the remaining 50% for other stuff like the Sherman and the Pershing (believe it or not it's actually a medium tank). The reason being that I'd have more T-34s than Panthers is because, like Smeghead said, T-34s are cheaper than Panthers.
     
  7. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    Hi Blaster, welcome to the forum!

    If I read you right, you would have an all-medium tank force, with 4 different designs?

    Why not stick with 2 mediums, and maybe have a 'heavy' design as well?
     
  8. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    Re: RE: T-34 or Panther

    Blaster why should the M26 be a Medium tank?
    In 1945 it was classed as a Heavy???

    I wonder if Germany would have made T-34's would they have made much more than if they woulfd have made Panthers....
    If that is the case (with much more i mean atleast 2 times as many) i would go for T-34 but i doubt that....so my choice would still be Panther!
     
  9. Man

    Man New Member

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    For the Germans, the fact that the T-34 was cheaper is irrelevant. Even if they had produced a "German" T-34 in much greater numbers, they would still lack the fuel, ammo, and crews to make good use of them. In fact, a lot of the Panthers characteristics are perfectly suited to their needs of the time. A good, high velocity AT gun - they were on the defensive against massive mechanized armies. Relative reliability (though worse than the Tiger, IIRC)...
     
  10. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    Cheaper is relevant....they had to buy these tanks war or not!
    I don't think crew or ammo would have been much of a problem and even fuel wouldn't be as much of a problem compared with Panther as the T-34 has a diesel engine wich means it would be easier to get some fuel and they would use less of it (So less fuel needed for each tank....wich means you can run more of them)
     
  11. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Crew would not have been a problem? They were sending in all men from ages 15 to 60 by the end of the war. Do you think those men would have been grade-A tank crews?

    The Germans did a fair job compensating the lack of training of their soldiers by giving them high-quality equipment, instead of wasting them in large numbers of inferior machines like the Russians did. After all, the Germans had no luxurious population reserves.
     
  12. Man

    Man New Member

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    Ome_Joop, fuel and ammo were problems for the Germans. If you straight up don't believe me, I will have to find some sources for it. Roel makes the point very well on crews. With the loss of the Rumanian oil fields fuel was being synthetically made with coal. They could not have run more tanks.

    In addition, I would like to make the point that the Panther was more suited to the German medium tank needs after Kursk:

    # A good armor package
    # Good mobility
    # And most importantly, a good AT gun. The Germans had far less tanks than the Russians and where on the defensive, so they needed something to repell them with.
     
  13. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    Hold your horses don't hang me ---> my answer is Panther!

    Roel where all tank crews A-grade (all Russian tankers were A -grade for instance?)?

    It has nothing to do with believing anyone.....
    I know in 1945 germany was dead (no fuel...lack of a lot of things)..i don't believe that i ever said anything to contradict that...but we are not looking at the end of the war...a war where germany already had lost...we are now looking at a germany wich could make a T-34 in 1941/1942!
    If they started full production of a tank early on (the met T-34 early on in the war even captured factories) wich uses less resources and uses less fuel it would mean they would have more of it in the end (Diesel engine can run on lower graded fuel and uses less of it..)!
    It's a hypothetical question so a hypothetical answer would serve!
    If they started production early on there would have been crew enough...lack of soldiers in 1942/1943?

    SO yes the answer would be in that time no lack of anything it could have been possible (but that was simple not the german way)!
     
  14. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    High on the list of "Stupid Hitler Tricks" was the tendancy to give new formations, sometimes without even a cadre of experieinced personnel, the newest equipment. So while existing Panzer divisons worked to keep 20-30 Mk IVs running and used tankless tank crews as infantry, a new Panzer Brigade might find itself with 80 new Panthers.

    I think the Panzerwaffe was able to keep high standards right up to Citadel. The Panzer troops were considered the descendants of the WWI Strom Troopers and were considered the cream of the army. The losses at Kursk and the following Soviet offensives (not to mention North Africa, Sicily and Italy) took out enough of the best that training schools were unable to maintain the quality and meet manpower needs, so tank crew qualoity steadi;y declined (much as happended to the Luftwaffe fighter force in the winter of 1943-1944). This is one reason Citadel has been over dramatized as the death ride of the Panzerwaffe.
     
  15. Christian Ankerstjerne

    Christian Ankerstjerne Member

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    Ome Joop
    The Germans could theoretically have started building a T-34-76 copy in 1941, however there are several problems associated with this:
    1) The T-34-76 was eight tons or 40 % heavier than the Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.D
    2) The T-34-76 required diesel, the majority of which was being allocated to the Kriegsmarine
    3) Manufacturing the T-34-76 in Germany would have required extnsive re-tooling of the factories, possibly the installation of heavier lifting equipment and new range of diesel tank engines (which Germany didn't have a tradition of building previously)
    4) German tank production would practically be halted completely by a switch to the T-34-76 for months, at a time where Germany needed every tank they could get to support their offensive

    canambridge
    Germany had relatively few casualties at Zitadelle.
     
  16. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    What a difference fuel consumption makes...

    T-34/85 500 hp Diesel engine
    480 Liters it could drive 300 Km cross country
    For each liter it could drive 0.625 Km

    Panther 700 hp Maybeach Hl230
    730 liters it could drive 169 Km cross country
    For each liter it could drive 0.232 Km

    I hope these numbers are correct but then atleast it proves my statement...Fuel enough if they Built a T-34 clone

    The only problem is did i get the right numbers?
    (if not could someone provide them...just to compare)

    http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/tanks_ ... 34_85.html

    http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tan ... pfw_v.html
     
  17. Christian Ankerstjerne

    Christian Ankerstjerne Member

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    Not really, as it would require the Germans to to build many more vehicles - one T-34 for one Panther wouldn't do it.
     
  18. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    I've read your reply Christian and i can't agree more!

     
  19. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    The problem of the fuel-consuming German heavies only became serious by 1944 when Germany was also running low on everything else including personell. Of course, not all crews were grade-A, but fresh recruits of unreliable age levels could never hope to gain the necessary experience before they would be wiped out in their numerous but individually weaker tanks. This is what happened to Russia most of the time, indeed.
     

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