Tank Battles during the Ardennes Offensive

I can think of a few clashes between armoured units, but I don't really know details about anything that would qualify as a tank battle in the period between 16th December 1944 and 28th january 1945. Does anyone?

 

Panthers of LSSAH(As parts of Kampfgruppe Peiper) participated very tank battles in Stoumont in 19 December 1944.Furthermore,another part of Kampfgruppe,King Tigers of SS-Pz.Abt. 501 mostly saw tank battles in Stavelot.

 

Thanks Tolga. Do you have any details, losses on both sides, outcome? That would be much appreciated.

As a sidenote I think is too small for a whole topic, why do people refer to the 1st SS Panzer Division as the LSSAH? If you want to call it the Leibstandarte, then that would make it '1st SS LAH', not LSSAH. Leibstandarte SchützStaffel Adolf Hitler doesn't make any sense.

 

Hi Roel,

Unfortunately I don't have any information for certain losses except individual action reports at the moment.Books like Pallud's Battle of Bulge and Agte's Peiper provide excellent information on these mentioned battles.Let me collect my informations together,I can elect figures of loses from individual actions.

I do prefer LSSAH because it is easy to write in quick replies.If you call LSSAH,most of the people would understand it is 1.SS-Panzer Division,not a personal bodyguard unit of Hitler and element of SS-VT.

Best Regards
Tolga

 

All I can recall reading about tank battles in the Ardennes is that the US 2nd Armored Division was credited with destroying the German 2nd Panzer Division; this was from a book I read a very long time ago. No details on losses for either side.

 

Yes, that was an action of December 24th if I remember correctly. 2nd Armoured smashed into the open north flank of the 2nd Panzer as they tried to continue their advance to Dinant, which had stalled because of lack of fuel. Two regiments of the division were encircled and annihilated.

 

'Plagiarized' from “Freineux and Lamormenil” by George Winter.

 

Sounds like whoever experienced this was suffering from Tigerfobia, and therefore calling all the panzers he saw Panthers or Tigers....

What kind of sherman was it........?????

KBO

 

Actually KBO, most of the tank batallions of the armoured divisions of the Ardennes Offensive were equipped with Panthers. This is the only battle in which the majority of German medium tanks were Panthers. This story, especially because it applies to an SS Panzer Division, sounds quite accurate.

The type of Sherman is mentioned in the post: an M4A1/76(w), or a cast-hull Sherman with a 76mm gun and wet storage system.

 

Yeah i know..... just wanted to know wich kind of Sherman it was, because if it had been a normal M4, it would have been a fairytale.....

regards, KBO :smok:

 

Nice info Danyel, thanks!

 

What about when Patton's Third army entered Bastonge and then started to push the germans back in January? Do you call that a tank vs. tank battle
:bang:

 

Well, the initial breakthrough to Bastogne was made by 4th Armoured division facing the 5th FJ, so that hardly involved tank-to-tank fighting. But the ensuing attempts to snap the bulge by moving northwards from Bastogne involved some massive tank battles indeed, especialy after SS units like the 12th SS Pz were drawn from the north to the south shoulder to break the defences of the city. Does anyone know anything more about these battles?

15th PzGr vs. 4th Armoured? 12th SS Pz vs 6th Armoured? Führer Grenadier Brigade vs. 11th Armoured?

 

It seems to me like the SS far from being the "elite" most history books like saying were horrible soldiers.

Even if you discount the fact that they were the genocide commiters lets look at the Paris Insurrection.

The SS was there and there were a lot of them.

The FFI won the battle and because the allies feared the communists getting controll of Paris they released the 2nd Armored to help mop up the Germans.

How does losing to an ill equiped force of spies and guerillas qualify them as "The German Elite"?

General Von Choltiz (SP) the German Commander at Paris did not have a single good thing to say about the forces he had under his command. In his memoirs he openly says the SS were not good soldiers.

 

Well, what about the events at the bridge at Arnhem, where an exhausted force of two depleted SS divisions, ountumbered by their enemies, still destroyed theforce opposing them? The SS certainly were terrible morally, and lots of them were downright murderers, but their fanaticism made them extremely motivated troops, which is an advantage in battle. Their unlimited self-esteem caused them to undertake assaults and sustain defences other troops would have given up long ago.

In the event of Paris, I think the argument of morale is vital. The SS troops were fighting a lost battle against insurgents with the regular enemy army at the gates, whereas the rebels themselves were motivated by the stories they heard, terrible things like the events in Oradour-sur-Glane, to kill every SS man they saw.

 

Barkmann

I think that the Ardennes terrain didn't favor tank battles, because of its hilly and forested environment. Therefore tank to tank engagement were limited and huge tank battles out of the question. The tank was in the Ardennes merely a support of the infantry on both sides.

Of course there were some major tank engagement, like at Manhay and Bastogne. The most decisive clash was on the tip of the German advance, when the 2nd U.S. Armoured cut the word 'Panzer' out of the 2nd Paner Division by destroying most of its armoured vehicles on 26th of December.

 

By the way: elite refers to military achievements, not to moral standards.

 

Von Manstein spoke highly of the Waffen SS solidiers under his comamnd in his memoirs, Lost Victories.

Were the SS troops in Paris during the uprising rear area security types or "front line" soldiers?

 

The clash hade like a 95% chance of the germans winning surprise and the tank in general are the main reasons

 

Memoirs are hardly credible sources. One would have to look at the wartime communication to determine the oppinions about the Waffen-SS by the commanders.

Christian