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The consolidated Pearl Harbor mythology thread.

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by OpanaPointer, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

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    A ‘rhumb line’ is a constant bearing, crossing all meridians at the same angle. Maritime navigators, prior to the use of more common great circle routes, used to navigate along rhumb lines as it was simpler to follow a constant compass bearing than to periodically adjust one’s bearing as is necessary to follow a great circle. Over distance, rhumb lines are fairly consistently longer than great-circle routes. Rhumb lines are straight lines on a Mercator projection map, that is, if you draw it on a flat Mercator type map, it shows the straight line from point A to point B. Oddly enough, though, if one were to follow a Rhumb line for an indefinite period around the globe, you would eventually spiral in at one pole or the other (think about that for a minute and it makes sense).

    Great circle routes are shorter in distance but are not intuitively the shortest distance on a flat map as they appear to follow an arc as opposed to a straight line. On a globe, though, the great circle is quickly seen to be the shortest distance between points A and B. The bearings from point A to point B on a great circle vary, and some considerably, as one travels the intended route.

    For example, if one were to shoot a rhumb line from, say, Tokyo to, oh, say, Denver, Colorado, the straight line (rhumb) bearing would be 087°26′05″, thus, along that line one would travel, essentially, due east for about 10,140 Km to arrive at Denver. With a great circle route, the bearings would vary from 044°18′37″ around to 131°42′37″. Thus, departing Tokyo heading roughly northeast and, adjusting along the way (this is what computers are for) eventually one would find one’s self some 9400 Km later approaching Denver from the northwest, about 46° off the rhumb line bearing. The great circle route described runs east of the Kuriles, crosses over and arcs just north of the Aleutians (crossing back to the southeast quite close to Dutch Harbor, in fact), crosses the continental coast north of Vancouver and continues to the southeast to arrive at Denver.

    Rich
     
  2. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    If the radio waves follow a direct path between the radio and the reciever then they will I think follow a great circle route. However if it's reflected off the ionisphere (pretty much required for a Japan to Alaska transmission) then the route is not exactly clear as the reflection can have a horizontal component as well as a verticle one.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    I heard this one from a couple of people, so I'll deal with here.

    The myth is that there were no slit trenches dug at Hickam Field because they wanted more casualties so they left the enlisted men exposed to strafing.

    Besides being just a little sick, we can explain the lack of slit trenches very simply. The water table at Hickam was just three feet under the ground. So a six foot slit trench would have a yard of water in it at any given time. Wounded troops in those trenches might possibly drown. So it was considered a bad idea to place them at that facility.

    If there had been some grand conspiracy to casually sacrifice troops then there wouldn't have been slit trenches any where on Oahu. But there were. This type of contradictory and mutally exclusive myth is typical of the conspiracy "fans".
     
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Below are some of the Frequently Asked Questions about the attack on Pearl Harbor. Some are "short answers" and others have links to more comprehensive information on various web pages. If you don't see your question on the list below let us know and we'll try to help.

    "I just want to find sources for lots of information about the battle, point me there and let me loose!"

    The Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings

    PEOPLE
    Survivors' stories

    "Where can I see the survivor's accounts of the battle?"
    Naval Historical Center: Survivor's accounts of the battle
    Hawaii
    USN
    (Individual Commands)
    US ARMY
    Ground Forces
    Air Forces
    Japanese
    Civilian
    Washington
    Civilian
    Army
    Navy
    Tokyo
    Civilian

    "Prince Konoye was the Prime Minister before Tojo Hidecki. What does he say about the events leading up to the war?"
    Memoirs of Prince Konoye Fumimaro
    Premier of Japan during part of the pre-war period.
    Army
    Navy
    PLACES
    Hawaii
    Pearl Harbor
    Individual Ships
    Non-Ship Commands
    Army Commands
    Elsewhere on the Island
    Washington
    Tokyo
    SHIPS
    "I need pictures!"

    Battleship Row


    Ships present

    "What ships were in Pearl Harbor during the attack?"

    Photos

    Histories

    "What happened to the ships after the attack?"

    (DANFS entries here?)

    Ships not in harbor

    'What about Navy ships not in Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack? Where were they?"

    Photos
    Histories
    EVENTS
    Pre-attack

    "What did the Chiefs of Staff think of the situation at this time?"
    Memo from Gen. Marshall and Adm. Stark to FDR on the situation in the Far East
    "I heard that there was a few warnings from the Dutch prior to the attack. Is this based on facts?"
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 78, The Kra Alert
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 79, The Dutch Alert
    "What kind of preparation went on in Hawaii before the attack?"
    Adm. J. O. Richardson's memo on defense deficiencies at Pearl, Jan. '41.
    Adm. J. O. Richardson's memo regarding Pacific Fleet responsibilities under CNO Plan Dog, Jan. '41.
    The Naval Base Defense Air Force Operation Plan No. A-1-41.
    detailing the possible types of enemy attack on the Hawaiian Islands and discussing defense and search requirements.
    The Availability and Disposition of Patrol Planes on morning of 7 December, 1941/Report of Army-Navy Board of 31 October, 1941 ("The Martin-Bellinger Report")
    detailing the status of aircraft on the Hawaiian Islands and discussing search requirements.
    Pacific Fleet Confidential Letter NO. 2CL-41
    Subject: Security of the Fleet at Base and Operating Areas
    (Hart Exhibit #4.)
    Joint Coastal Frontier Defense Plan, Hawaiian Coastal Frontier and Fourteenth Naval District
    (Short Title: HCF 41 14ND-JCD-42)
    (Hart Exhibit #5.)
    Letter from CNO to Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Fleet
    Letter from Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Fleet
    And Letter from CNO to all District Commanders
    Regarding Anti-torpedo baffles (nets) for protection against torpedo planes.
    (Hart Exhibits #17, 18, and 19).
    Pacific Fleet Confidential Letter 14CL-41
    Subject: Task Forces-Organization and Missions
    (Hart Exhibit #21.)
    Air Defense of Pearl Harbor
    Establishing Liaison and Defining Responsibilities between Navy and Army
    (Hart Exhibit #23.)
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 120, Availability of search aircraft in Hawaii on Dec. 7th, 1941.
    Exchange of Letters between SecNav and SecWar
    Discussing air security of Pearl Harbor
    (Hart Exhibit #40.)
    "The Japanese intended to deliver a message to the US before the attack. What did it say?"
    The 14-part Message
    which was to be delivered to the U. S. State Dept. at 1 p. m. on December 7, 1941.
    "So this wasn't a declaration of war. When, then, did the actual Japanese declaration get written?"
    Minutes of the conference
    called to write the Japanese declaration of war.
    "Did the US have any plans in case of war?"

    "What were the Japanese plans for the attack?"
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 8 "General survey concerning the attack on Hawaii" from Japanese sources after the war. Included are statements on the planning of the attack and force structure.
    Exhibits of the Joint Committee, Pt. 12, pp. 431-441 The "Separate Volume":
    "Combined Fleet Operations in the War Against the UNITED STATES, GREAT BRITAIN and the NETHERLANDS will be conducted in accordance with the Separate Volume. ", Yamamoto Isoruku.
    (This is the "Separate Volume" mentioned as having been destroyed in Japanese Monograph No. 97, Pearl Harbor Operations: General Outline of Orders and Plans.)

    Attack
    Hawaii

    "Is there a 'blow-by-blow' description of the events during the attack?"

    "I heard a submarine was attacked outside the harbor before the attack. What happened?"
    Testimony of Captain Outerbridge, CO of the USS WARD, the destroyer which fired the first shots on the U. S. side in an attack against a midget sub trying to enter Pearl Harbor before 7 a. m. on Dec. 7th.
    AND
    Reproduction of the Bishop's Point Radio Log
    which shows WARD's reports to Com 14th.

    Washington
    Japan

    Post-attack
    Hawaii
    Washington
    Japan
    PHOTOS
    People
    Ships
    Planes
    Places
    Maps
    Digital Documents
    INTELLIGENCE

    "What's this 'East Wind Rain' thing all about?"

    Material Relating To "Winds Code"



    Espionage

    Magic Messages

    What kind of information did they find in the "Magic" messages?
    AND


    Counter-espionage

    Code-breaking

    "I heard we had broken the Japanese codes. How much could we learn from them?"


    "What about Hawaii? Any code breaking done there?"


    Estimates

    "What did the US think the Japanese were doing?"
    Pacific Fleet Intelligence Bulletin No. 45-41.
    "Organization of the Japanese Fleet."
    Daily communication intelligence summaries
    for the period 1 November 1941 through 6 December 1941.
    These were for the use of Commander in Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet, at Pearl Harbor.
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 33, Military Intelligence Estimates Prepared by G-2, Washington, 1 July-7 December 1941.
    These were for the use of the President and officials in D.C.
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 80, Fortnightly Summary of Current National Situations
    for Nov. 1, Nov. 15, and Dec. 1, summaries of the world situation on all continents.
    Forces

    "What was the composition of the Japanese Navy?"

    Organization Of The Japanese Fleets

    "How did the US naval compare with other navies at the time?"
    Naval Balance of Forces
    Allies and Axis comparative naval strength, computed for May 1, 1941 and December 7, 1941.
    (Exhibits of the Joint Committee, Pt. 15, pp 1901-06.)

    PRE-WAR PLANNING

    "What did the US think about the global situation as far as allocation of military resources was concerned?"
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 55, CONFERENCE IN THE OFFICE OF THE CHIEF OF STAFF AT 10:00 A. M., TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 1941 (Concerning, among other things, allocation of B-17s.)
    "The US had a war plan called Rainbow-5? What was this?"
    Navy Basic War Plan-Rainbow No. 5 (WPL-46)
    Navy Plan O-1
    The "short version" of Rainbow-5, with only those sections specific to the Pacific Fleet.
    (Hart Exhibit #16.)
    Martin-Bellinger Report

    "Did the US have any discussions regarding mutual defense with any other countries?"
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 49, United States-British Staff Conversations (ABC-1 talks on division of military responsibility in case of US entry into the war.)
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 50, American-Dutch-British Conversations, discussing military cooperation in the Far East, April, 1941.
    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 51, Joint Canadian-United States Basic Defense Plan No. 2 (Short Title-ABC-22), discussing military cooperation between Canada and the United States.

    INVESTIGATIONS

    "There was a series of investigations into the attack. What did they find?"

    (Links marked FAST are complete documents in one file and are for those with high-speed access or don't mind waiting for an 800+ page document to download.)

    The Knox Investigation
    Dec. 9-14, 1941.
    FAST The Knox Investigation
    Dec. 9-14, 1941.

    The Roberts Commission
    Dec. 18-January-23, 1941

    The Hart Investigation
    Feb. 12-June 15, 1944 ​
    The Army Pearl Harbor Board
    Jul. 20-Oct. 20, 1944
    The Navy Court of Inquiry
    Jul. 24-Oct. 19, 1944.
    FAST REPORTS, FINDINGS, AND CONCLUSIONS OF
    ROBERTS COMMISSION,
    ARMY PEARL HARBOR BOARD,
    NAVY COURT OF INQUIRY,
    AND HEWITT INQUIRY, WITH ENDORSEMENTS,
    combined as Volume 39 of the Hearings.

    The Clarke Investigation
    Aug. 4-Sep 20, 1944
    FAST The Clarke Investigation
    Aug. 4-Sep 20, 1944
    The Clausen Investigation
    Jan. 24-Sep. 12, 1945
    FAST The Clausen Investigation
    Jan. 24-Sep. 12, 1945
    The Hewitt Inquiry
    May 14-July 11, 1945
    The Joint Congressional Committee
    Nov. 15, 1945-May 23, 1946
    FAST The Joint Congressional Committee
    Nov. 15, 1945-May 23, 1946

    GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE

    "What was going on in the rest of the world during 1941?"

    Pearl Harbor Timeline
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Mr. Jacobsen posted this at pearlharborattacked.com:

    [FONT=&quot]pjacobsen[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Private[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Joined: Apr 27, 2001[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Posts: 2[/FONT]
    [​IMG][FONT=&quot]Posted: 2001-04-27 12:11 [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]​
    [FONT=&quot]
     
  6. Kevin Kenneally

    Kevin Kenneally Member

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  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    That's what "pend acquisition" means, amigo. I'm on the trail. Just have to make the right connections to get the best quality copies.
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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  9. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    I would like permission to reprint here an article I read many years ago in the pages of The Avalon Hill 'General' called "Myths of the Pearl Harbour Attack". It appeared in 'The General' as a reprint, and now that that Avalon Hill is defunct, qualifies as fair game for posting on the internet, which I seek a moderators permission to do exactly that.

    Mods, are you there?
     
  10. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Yes, one of us is here.

    As long as you give credit where credit is due.
     
  11. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    No problem....

    I'll start on this one directly, should be finished in a couple of hours. Do I post it as a new thread?
     
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    On of my favorites:

    The IJN tanker Shiriya sent a message saying, in part: "This ship is proceeding direct to a position 30-00 North, 154-20 East." In the first edition of Stinnett's book this was called "just north of Hawaii". If you look at this map, http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/CarrierChartE.jpg
    you'll see it's nearer Wake than Hawaii. Stinnett read "East" as "West" and so off he went.

    It's a pity they can't "open and change" all of the copies of Stinnett's book. The "fix" they patched in (pg. 216) is rather clumsy and pointless.
     
  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    All volumes of the Hearings are now online.
     
    ResearcherAtLarge likes this.
  14. ResearcherAtLarge

    ResearcherAtLarge Member

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    Congratulations! Quite a body of work there. I don't know that many people could hold that dedication.
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Meh, you should check out the sites in my sig. Patrick and I have put together the odd bit of documentation on the war.
     
  16. gunbunnyb/3/75FA

    gunbunnyb/3/75FA Member

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    sir, i know this question is probably in the wrong area, but im gonna ask it any way, what do you think about adm. edwin t. layton's book "and i was there"?
     
  17. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    No problem, ask any questions you wish. The collective body of information here is comprehensive. I learn something from the Rogues every time we go into new territory.

    As for Layton, I don't have a problem with him stating his point of view, of course, but I do think that his opinions are flavored by a need to make himself and his boss look better than they came out at the end. His complaints about not getting "Magic" decrypts have been voided by several folks who pointed out that he was getting all the information a theater commander needed to work with.
     
  18. ResearcherAtLarge

    ResearcherAtLarge Member

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    Check out the site in mine; I'm chugging along behind you guys! But that's why I can say it's good work.
     
  19. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    I've visited, and liked what I saw. Keep on with the good work.
     
  20. gunbunnyb/3/75FA

    gunbunnyb/3/75FA Member

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    i have to agree with you on that. on the other hand, what if joe rochefort had gotten the magic intercepts prior to the attack? do you think he could have warned kimmel in time?
     

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