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The current Spanish Secession

Discussion in 'Free Fire Zone' started by A-58, Oct 29, 2017.

  1. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude Patron  

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    The secession of Catalonia from Spain thing that's going on, what's up with all that business? I never heard as much as a peep about that before, now it's been in the news for the last few weeks or so every day. Of course I am not up on Spanish politics, so things do get by me. In the past I've heard about the Basque separatist movement, but they never seem to get much traction. But this Catalonia stuff is out of left field for me anyway. Why are they so unhappy with being a part of Spain? Will another Spanish civil war break out, with the Basques and who (whom) ever else is unhappy and bent on leaving the republic to go their own way, joining in the hostilities? Is Gibraltar safe? Generalissimo Francisco Franco is undoubtedly turning in his grave.
     
  2. ColHessler

    ColHessler Member

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    Catalunya never got around to building bombs like the Basques did, but they still have their own language and culture, so yes I felt it might come one day. As for war, no, no one in the Iberian Peninsula has it in them.
    What's hilarious to me is that the independence movement still want an independent Catalunya to be in the EU. Talk about trading one master for another.
     
  3. The_Historian

    The_Historian Pillboxologist

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    Which is why the Scottish Nationalists are obsessed with the whole crisis. Some idiot even demanded the Catalonian flag be flown from Edinburgh city chambers to "show solidarity", like it's got anything to do with us.
     
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  4. toki2

    toki2 Active Member

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    I think the Spanish government totally mishandled this and put the jackboots on. At least Scotland had the right to decide but the Catalonians cannot as the Spanish constitution disallows this. At least the UN has queried this as it is against the basic human right of self determination which just happens to be in the EU charter also but they have conveniently forgotten. The West is quick to condemn the human rights of the rest of the world but turns a blind eye when it may upset their apple cart.
     
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  5. JJWilson

    JJWilson Active Member

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  6. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

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    In my scant reading on the subject the real reason seems to be economics... The Basque separatist movement was cultural and has been around a long time. Remember Spain got in trouble a few years , in the 2007-08 mortgage crisis, by having a very high level of national debt relative to income. like Greece. .Catalunya is the richest province in Spain and complains they are paying too much in taxes to prop up the country and not getting enough in return. Seems like the US once made a similar argument... a few hundred years ago .

    If one looks deep enough economics is often the underlying cause of lots of discord thought the immediate outbreaks associated with it often are different...

    Gaines
     
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  7. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

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    JJ, I started my post about 2 hours ago and got interrupted before just finishing it. did not see your post above. I think the economics of Catalonia is spot on as the cause of this.

    Gaines
     
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  8. JJWilson

    JJWilson Active Member

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    No need to apologize Gaines, good to know we are on the same page! I had a feeling that Catalonia is pretty important for Spain, the aggressive response makes sense.
     
  9. Mussolini

    Mussolini Gaming Guru Patron  

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    From my understanding, Catalonia had a measure of independence until Franco and the SCW arrived. They lost that independence under Franco's regime and when it fell, they wanted to get that Independence back. However, that was not to be, so they're basically still angry that things have not returned to pre-SCW standings.

    Economics are a large part too. We'd view Spain like we view Greece if Greece wasn't around (IE a pitfall of money). Of course, Catalonia is the wealthiest region in Spain, so they don't really see a need to stay with Spain for economic purpose.

    According to Wiki: (GRP in millions)

    1 Catalonia 262,388
    2 Community of Madrid 252,407
    3 Andalusia 189,978
    4 Valencian Community 135,310
    5 Basque Country 88,692
     
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  10. toki2

    toki2 Active Member

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    Spanish government seem to think that if they crack down hard with their militarised police, arrests of the Catalonian leaders and suspension of their civil servants and Parliament, it will nip it in the bud. It won't. I have lived through the Irish troubles and these very measures provided a rich recruiting ground for the IRA and UDA. Violent clashes are bound to occur and once a couple of lives are lost, the Catalonians will take up arms and we will see tit for tat indiscriminate killings from both sides. The UN and EU need to get their finger out here and prevent a civil war. My son happened to be in Barcelona on holiday during the demonstrations and before the ballot. He said that there were hundreds of the Guarda Civil housed in cruise ships and the local police were very nervous. The Guarda although called a police force are very much a military force and have served in that capacity for the UN. The Spanish government is therefore going against UN and EU charters that ban the use of military force on a member nation's civilians. The EU is strangely silent so far as they need Spain's support in the present Brexit situation. Principles are great until you need to put them into practice.
     
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  11. Mutley

    Mutley Active Member

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    I believe the Catalan Govt had tried 19 times to seek a legally recognised referendum via the Govt in Madrid but they refused. Spain as a whole is quite heavily in debt to both the Germans and French. The Spanish have been making illegal entries into the Gibraltar coastal waters for quite some time. Here's a compilation of some of the violence during polling day 1st October. Up to now the Catalans have tried their best to see this through peacefully, some have called it Ghandi like. 155 Videos of the Repression lived in Catalonia by the Spanish Police in the Referendum of October 1, 2017
     
  12. JJWilson

    JJWilson Active Member

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    I Don't think this situation will erupt into Civil War, or at least it's highly unlikely. Catalonia, doesn't really have anyway to fight back unless the police their get involved. Besides their inability to fight back, I'm not so sure they are desperate enough for independence by bloodshed either (I don't mean rioting, I mean actual combat). Maybe they are, I don't know. I'll be interested to see how this pans out......
     
  13. Terry D

    Terry D Active Member

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    This situation is not a sudden thing; it goes back hundreds of years, almost to the unification of Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella. Catalonia was the richest part of the old kingdom of Aragon and it has always been a mercantile and commercial region, very different from the agricultural and pastoral provinces of the crown of Castile. Catalonia always had special provincial rights (fueros) and the Catalans have always reacted fiercely when they felt that Madrid was infringing upon them. I was just reading about the Catalan rebellion against Spain in 1640, which took over a decade for the Spanish to suppress. If Spanish history is any guide, then civil war is indeed very possible and in fact likely if neither side shows any willingness to compromise. People are talking a lot about economics on this page, but you should never underestimate the political power of pride, anger, and nationalism. If the EU is to have any meaning, then it should and must act immediately. If the EU sits by passively while Spain burns down then they may as well dissolve the whole structure.
     
  14. toki2

    toki2 Active Member

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    Well put! The Catalan leaders have fled to Belgium (who invited them) to regroup, avoid arrest and direct operations from abroad. This scenario has been played out many times throughout history - a prelude to revolution - eg Lenin and his cohorts exactly 100 years ago. The EU is doomed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  15. The_Historian

    The_Historian Pillboxologist

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    This was reported at lunchtime yesterday, but strangely not repeated on any radio news I heard at work last night.
    "Sacked Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has gone to Belgium, a lawyer he has hired there says.
    The lawyer, Paul Bekaert, did not comment on reports that Mr Puigdemont could be preparing an asylum claim.
    Spanish prosecutor have called for rebellion charges to be brought against him and other organisers of Catalonia's banned independence referendum."
    Sacked Catalan leader 'in Belgium'
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The New York Times had a similar report yesterday., but it seems that only in the last few hours has the story gained much more traction in the news outlets.
     
  17. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    NPR mentioned this morning that he was being charged with "rebellion" and "sedition". Not where he was though although it did say he had "fled".
     
  18. Mutley

    Mutley Active Member

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    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  19. The_Historian

    The_Historian Pillboxologist

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    They ain't making the revolutionaries like they used to.
    "A judge in Madrid has jailed eight former Catalan regional ministers behind the failed independence bid over fears they will attempt to flee the country.
    The Deputy First Minister and seven of his senior colleagues were taken to a jail on the outskirts of the capital Madrid after appearing before the Spanish High Court to answer charges of sedition and rebellion.
    The region's former leader Carles Puigdemont – who fled to Brussels with four of his colleagues on Monday – remains at large but has yet to comment on the action taken against his ministers.
    A European arrest warrant has now been issued for Puigdemont along with the four others who failed to turn up in Madrid, newspaper La Vanguardia said. A spokeswoman for the High Court could not confirm the warrant had been issued."
    Madrid judge jails eight former Catalan regional ministers | Daily Mail Online
     
  20. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Years ago when I was a vagrant yoot hitchhiking across the US of A, I fell in with a French yoot doing the same thing. He was from the south and told me how he wasn't really French, but rather proudly Catalan, and made a big point about that distinction. I haven't heard much from the French side of the border on this, but it makes me wonder if Spanish Catalonia manages to break free, will the adjoining French side start rumbling to break free and join?

    .
     
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