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The German Soviet Pact and the Allies

Discussion in 'Prelude to War & Poland 1939' started by racgs, Aug 24, 2015.

  1. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member Patron  

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    You continue to state as fact something you have still failed to prove, that some mythical puppet Ukrainian state would be a 'deadly threat' to the Soviet Union, and now a similar threat to Poland. More to the point you now concede Hitler refused to create such a beast when he had the chance. To claim a puppet state of 450,000 people in a back water of central Europe is a credible destabilizing factor in the face of Totalitarian states is ludicrous. Was there free border access between Germany, Poland and the SU? Did they have credible free press's? All three counties had well deserved reputation's for nipping any anti-government opposition in the bud, so where is the 'deadly threat'?

    No reason you say for the SU to come to the aid of Poland, then why enter talks to do that very thing? Stalin concluded the West wasn't serious because they were not prepared to give them the Carte Blanche to do as they please along her borders the way Nazi Germany would.

    To buy into the rest of your post you have to buy into the Stalinist Communism paranoia as being logical, which it wasn't. You seem to forget what Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin was saying at the same time Churchill spoke, the whole world revolution thing. Ring any bells? Just how could Stalin know in the late summer of 1939 what the Allies would do in a war not yet declared and how could that inform him to distrust the Anglo-French alliance. Did Stalin somehow forget Britain was a naval power? Really? Of course they aren't going to deploy dozen's of divisions initially.

    By the way in 1914 Imperial Russia invaded Germany first, not the other way around and the French offensive began within days of German movements.
     
  2. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    NO : in 1914 Germany declared war on Russia and attacked her, France remained impertubable til Germany invaded France .There was also NO French offensive ,but a counter-offensive after the Germans invaded France . The French-Russian treaty stipulated clearly that if Germany declared war on Russia, France should immediately declare war on Germany and attack her, what France didn't .

    There was no reason at all for Stalin to join France and Britain (2 countries who had tried to crush communism) in a war against Germany because Germany had attacked Poland (an other country that had invaded Russia to crush communism )

    US did not declare war on Germany in september 1939, why should the USSR do it ?
     
  3. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    In 1938 the Cheka killed Konovalets (one of the leaders of the OUN,organisation of Ukrainian nationalists ) in Rotterdam . This indicates that the Kremlin perceived the OUN as a big danger . Already before the war Poland was losing mastery over the eastern regions and already on 1 september (before the Soviet invasion ) there was a general upraising in these regions
    involving anti-Polish pogroms .
     
  4. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    The Ukrainian nationalists, mostly from the western part (Galicia) have always been a problem. They are the ones who also fought alongside Poland against the Bolsheviks in Eastern Ukraine and Belarus in 1920. Russia came to their aid. They numbered in the tens of thousands if not more. After WW2, Zhukov himself was sent to Odessa to "clean" up the city of Bonderovtsi. They numbered at around 75k then. These were very dangerous and fanatical individuals. Today they are marching in Kiev with lit torches giving Nazi salutes and their leader is the Mayor of Kiev. The main highway formally the Moscow Prospect has just recently been renamed to the Stepan Bonderov Prospect.... Just amazing.
     
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  5. wm.

    wm. Active Member

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    Since when France or Britain were trying to crush communism?
    Because it was entirely the other way, the Soviets stated many times that the capitalist system would collapse in a matter of a few years, and were trying to undermine it by terrorist means, through the so called Komintern and their total control of all the communist parties all around the world.

    Poland didn't invade Russia to crush communism but to regain some Polish territories occupied by the Bolsheviks, themselves an illegitimate rebel movement not much different from ISIS today.
    Actually the Poles regarded the USSR a better alternative (because they expected their country would be weak and powerless for many year to come) than the Imperial Russia or even some post-imperial new Russia, and actually supported the Soviets in some ways, for example by refusing to cooperate with the legitimate Russian forces.
    It can be said with only slight exaggeration that in the end the Poles saved the USSR from destruction.
     
  6. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    You don't see the real problem because you're caught in a hide-and-show game. The real question is:

    France and Britain have conquered practically the whole globe, by merciless outright aggression, in breach of all rules of humanity. Why they got away with it without at least honest historic question? What has absolved them from all the crimes and attrocities they've committed across the globe in the name of freedom and democracy.?
     
  7. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member Patron  

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    Now you are being deliberately obtuse, actually doubly so.

    The march to war in 1914 is well documented and in its own way a dark comedy of errors based upon the plans of mice and men. Every participant had their own agenda, though their stated goals were generally at odds with that agenda. Each participant thought they could control the beast they unleashed and soon learned their folly.

    Each nation had a mobilization plan, that once enacted set them on a course that essentially could not be undone lest chaos ruled. Serbia funds the assassination of the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne to destabilize the Balkan's, Austro-Hungarian's use the loss of a Archduke they didn't really care for as a excuse to eliminate Serbia, Russia mobilizes her army (which is a de-facto DoW) to maintain her status in the Balkans, but targets East Prussia, Germany declares on Russia to protect her only ally, yet sends her army to France.

    Germany declared on Russia first in response to Russia's threat to her ally Austro-Hungary, but it was Russia who attacked Germany first, while Germany attacks France first. There was no need for France to declare on Germany since they were already on the march TO France, fighting Germany was inevitable.

    You keep saying there was no reason for the SU to join the Anglo-French, yet you continue to fail to explain why Stalin (They're coming to get me!) negotiated to do that very thing!

    Maybe the US didn't declare on Germany in 1939 because they didn't have '100 divisions' to throw in to battle and Germany wasn't invading a county we shared a border with (say Canada) and had not specifically stated he intended to turn the US a vast Aryan Colony.

    Logic can be a bummer.

    I said doubled down didn't I. You did that when you dragged what happened to a previous Russian government to explain the phobia's of a succeeding Russian government even though those events was exactly what they wanted to create the succeeding Russian Government. Introducing a irrelevant, contradictory and off topic factoid to divert a discussion is a classic case of being obtuse.
     
  8. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    You don't know that France , Britain, Japan, the US intervened in the Russian Civil War to crush the communists ?
     
  9. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    I am dreaming : you are parotting The Sleepwalkers !

    There was no comedy of errors : only one country wanted war in 1914 = Germany, for reasons who were obvious to anyone .

    The murderers of Sarajevo were citizens of AH and in a letter to the Kaiser (which is available on the net) , the Austrian emperor said : we can't prove that Serbia is responsible .That's why AH did nothing during a whole month .
    Russia was not threatening AH: AH did NOT ask Germany for help against Russia and in the German DoW (available on the net ) ,Germany did not say that Russia was threatening AH . Russia did also not threaten Germany,as it was mobilizing only small forces on the German border .

    The content of the German DoW on Russia was a flat lie ,the same for the DoW on France .

    The fact is that Germany was mobilizing the first ,that Germany started a war against Russia and against France and that all the other countries (including AH ) tried to avoid a general war . Germany wanted this war since 1905, because only such a war could give Germany what it wanted :domination of Europe .

    France was indifferent to the German-Russian war,because the French-Russian alliance was dead since several years ,the alliance was a deadborn child :for France the significance of the alliance was that Russia would help France if France was attacked by Germany, not the opposite . It was the same for Russia :the French would fight and die for Russia, not the opposite .



    About Stalin : it is not so that Stalin was negotiating his entry in the war, neither did the French and the British :they were travelling to Moscow only for propaganda reasons and to try to prevent a world war ,but the USSR should do the dirty work .

    Stalin was a suspicious man and he demanded an answer on the following question :

    In 1914 capitalist France and Britain were looking the other way when capitalist Germany attacked capitalist Russia . Now these 2 capitalist countries wanted communist SU to take the risk of facing a war with capitalist Germany . Why should they help the SU ? Would they do not the same as in 1914 ?

    If one is looking at the question without hindsight, Stalin's suspicions were justified .

    Britain and France always said : we will handle Germany, no need for a Soviet intervention (not that the Sovjets proposed their help),and now,suddenly, Britain and France changed their strategy ;they asked for Soviet help= the USSR should do the fighting and they would be the spectators .

    This was the opinion of Stalin .
     
  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Umm, the US and Japan did not intervene in the Russian Civil War "to crush the communists".
     
  11. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    To understand origins of wars of the past century you should look who stood behind the key decisions. Ironically, rivalry within British royal family pushed the world into the greatest misery ever:

    [​IMG]
     
  12. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they were going to vist the places of interest of Siberia ?

    For Stalin they came to crush the communists .


    Communism was a sect,that felt threatened by the outside world,and that was swarming with deviationists, "right wing" and "left wing " opponents,that was suspicious not only to non communists,but also to all communists
     
  13. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    It was more than that, it was the conviction in Germany that the 18th century was the century of French hegemony, the 19th century the century of British hegemony and that it was now (in the 20th century ) the turn of Germany .

    It was the slogan : Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen :Germany had a mission,the German Kultur would save the world .
     
  14. wm.

    wm. Active Member

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    They intervened to protect their interests, to protect their assets - usually the weapons their sent to Russia and didn't want to end up in inappropriate hands.
    If all those powers really had wanted to crush the communists, they would have crushed them like a house of cards in matter of months - considering that the weak Poland was able to almost do it single-handedly.
     
  15. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Slogans are what they are - slogans. The truth is different: it is Kaiser Wilhelm, descendant of British queen Victoria who turned Germans into Huns. Here is a speech of Kaiser Wilhelm, the precusor of Hitler - he speaks to his soldiers leaving to China:

    Should you encounter the enemy, he will be defeated! No quarter will be given! Prisoners will not be taken! Whoever falls into your hands is forfeited. Just as a thousand years ago the Huns under their King Attila made a name for themselves, one that even today makes them seem mighty in history and legend, may the name German be affirmed by you in such a way in China that no Chinese will ever again dare to look cross-eyed at a German. Maintain discipline. May God’s blessing be with you, the prayers of an entire nation and my good wishes go with you, each and every one. Open the way to civilization once and for all! Now you may depart! Farewell, comrades!

    Wilhelm was the Führer No. 1, Hitler was the Führer No. 2. Nazis have roots in the British Royal family.
     
  16. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member Patron  

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    Hindsight? Hardly, none was needed.

    Lets sum up shall we.

    In the summer of 1925 Hitler publishes "Mein Kampf" which lays out in considerable detail what he intends to do in the event he comes to power in Germany. Unlike any other significant European leader/politician he doesn't simply advocate a change in leadership/government in the USSR, he desires to erase Russia as a nation from the map. Exterminate much, if not most, of the population, with the survivor's becoming a ignorant perpetual slave race. Rather more than anything Churchill said or did.

    After coming to power in 1933 Hitler proceeds to crush all political opposition, including the Communist Party within Germany. Their leadership, and much of the rank and file, are shipped off to the early Concentration Camps, many to never be seen again. In France and Britain by comparison The Communist Party's are allowed to exist and have representation in the governments of both countries. Indeed Moscow had contact, sometimes indirect control of these groups in Britain and France. Rather a different approach isn't it.

    Also in 1933 all forms of media (print/radio/film) come under the control of the Propaganda Ministry. Everything proposed by Mein Kampf and used to get the Nazi Party into power now become amplified by these organ's. Not really needed since there will never be a election again, so no need to keep hyping this, but valuable if your trying to motivate your people see a Eastern Crusade as not only possible or necessary, but desirable. The Nazi Party does not stop there, Education, Sport and even the free time of children has this theme drilled into them. Yes, some media say less than flattering things about the USSR in Britain and France, but by no means all and the Communist's in these countries are not prevented from getting their stories out as a counter.

    Not looking good for Mother Russia is it?

    Again, beginning in 1933, Hitler undertakes a massive program of re-armament, one predominately focused on land campaign's. This was no secret, it was in all the papers. France had a massive line of defensive works, The Czech's had a not too shabby one to the south, but nothing of significance facing east, and didn't Hitler write and say something about creating a new German Empire in the East?

    In 1936 Hitler's Germany helps Franco crush the Soviet supported Republican's.

    In early 1938 Hitler swallows in one gulp Austria and gains her military and arms to supplement his own. In late 1938 and early 1939 he aims closer to the Soviet Union by taking control of Czechoslovakia in two big bites, thus adding the famous Skoda arms works to his arsenal, as well as the Czech military's already produced weapons.

    This is getting serious!

    Finally in the late summer of 1939 Hitler announces his intention to 'adjust borders' with Poland. He is definitely moving East, toward Mother Russia and in the past 'border adjustment' has meant the end of a counties independent existence. The one and only buffer state between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany is in Hitler's cross hair's. After this Hitler would have a straight shot to Moscow and a chance to make his well known dreams come true. Stalin has one last chance to fight this battle, not on Soviet soil, but on Poland's which eliminates any chance of her getting adventurous against Russia for generations. Stalin has '100 Divisions' to throw into battle, more than Hitler, a chance to gain three allies to split the burden, a chance to fight this war on Polish and German soil.

    None of this is hindsight.

    Stalin's actions were based neither on logic or reason, but upon uncontrolled paranoia and greed to make a deal with somebody, anybody, willing to satiate his appetite for expansion. Unfortunately millions of Russian's would pay dearly for his greed and lack of foresight, and yes foresight is both real and very different from hindsight.
     
  17. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Regain Polish lands such as Belarus and Ukraine?

    The Bolsheviks the same as ISIS today?!? :rofl: I'm sure Carl Marx would also have a nice laugh. :rofl:

    Poles saved the USSR from destruction!?! I have clearly been reading wrong material all these years! Darn.
     
  18. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    the British were very active against the soviets right after the revolution. France and Britain seriously considered bombing Baku to help the Finns
     
  19. wm.

    wm. Active Member

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    So how many native Russians lived there? None? Exactly. Those territories had been in Polish or Lithuanian hands from 1320 if I'm not mistaken.
    Were the Belorussians or Ukrainians Russians? Maybe "little Russians"? Did they want to live in the USSR, enjoy the Holodomors, murders, waves of deportations to Siberia?
    Considering how many of them fled the USSR to Poland I would say they strongly preferred Poland.

    The fact that Poland proffered the USSR than Russia is firmly established. And the fact that the Poles for the same reason didn't want to support the efforts of Anton Denikin to capture Moscow. Just google "Piłsudski Denikin talks" or see this.

    Additionally one of the Polish goals was a free, independent Ukraine - for this reason the Ukrainian Army fought on the side of Poland during that war.
     
  20. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    My friend why stop at 1320? If memory serves me right, Galica (which is where the overwhelming majority of the Ukrainian nationalists are from) was part of Kiev-Rus more than 1000 years ago then subsequently switched hands from Poland to Austro-Hungarian rule. Poland as a country was only reestablished after WWI. There was a border between Poland and Ukraine, the Curzon Line. That line changed when Marshall Pilsudski attacked during the Russian revolution. Galicia was taken over until 1939.
    The Galicians felt repressed to the point of assassinating the Polish interior minister and other officials and they didn't stop there. The Volhynian massacre was the end result.

    Strong animosity exists till this day between Poles and Ukrainians. Poland was the first NATO country to file a formal protest against the new government once it realized who they considered national heroes. Stepan Bondera is no hero in Poland.

    Not sure what Russia has to do with Poland attacking Belarus aside from Belarus declaring independence from the Russian Empire in 1918(?) Poland attacked Ukraine and Belarus in an attempt to stretch her borders. Didn't go according to plan.
     
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