Discussion in 'Armor and Armored Fighting Vehicles' started by JCFalkenbergIII, May 24, 2008.
no argumnet here Za, but is still looks pretty cool.
To me it seems a little too low down to be effective, if some rubble fell from a building nearby it could effectively bury it.
I was wondering the same thing.
Looking at the field fortications they make more sense. Better field of fire.
At least seven losses to a single dug in Pantherturm (among others) described on Gerry Chester's excellent site:
Photographs Italian Campaign
And more, including Gerry's own tank; Ballyrashane:
Churchill/Sherman Deployment, Page 3
Every account I read describes the well dug in and sited turrets in Italy as absolutely lethal, a reasonable supply of reconditioned Panther turrets with no chassis to mount onto, or perhaps turrets that were ordered for chassis that became Bergepanthers... a cost-effective use of them.
I thought I'd recheck the Short book for some clearer reference to the sourcing of turrets.
Three types used:
Some ausf. A taken straight from the production line, mostly went to the Hitler line.
Then some earlier ausf. D, presumably from reconditioned/battle damaged/ converted stock.
And finally a specially designed turret, the 'Ostwallturm' or 'Ostbefestigung', with a narrower mantlet, cupola replaced by a simple hatch with a single periscope, & roof armour beefed up from 16mm to 65mm.
He then descends into much detail on production figures and manufacturers... c.180 turrets deployed in this way.
Seems just a waste of turrets and mobility to use them in fixed positions.
It isn't when you don't have the fuel needed to power the vehicle supposedto be beneath the turret. Either way, you're done for
The majority of these turrets that saw action in WW2 more than justified their placement, with multiple kills and sometimes large allied formations tied up by them.
As opposed to a waste it seems uncommonly efficient of the Germans to use up these turrets in this way rather than leave 'em rusting in some yard somewhere. When as severely on the defensive as Germany became, mobility can be sacrificed for excellent placement and concealment. They're also, on the whole, a lot cheaper than custom designed Bunker armaments.
The cost effectiveness is underlined by the sheer number of turret emplacements still being built worldwide along Cold war borders postwar, from Greece to Finland, it was still considered worthwhile to recycle 'obsolete' tank turrets into useful emplacements.
Any Info on how many kills? Were there emplacemant "Aces" LOL
How about in other areas other then Italy?
Cobbled together a rough and incomplete list, with types where they're mentioned.
Alderney (16 turrets, 7 with 3.7cm & MG, 9 with just 3.7)
Guernsey (c.30, 20XFT17)
Belgium & Netherlands (c.4000 ringstande, but no data on how many carried turrets)
Spanish border (2Xpz.38t 18XPz.1&2 planned but a handful completed)
Eastern Front Total (c.694)
Soviet Union (c.1830
Poland (fair few, many captured T34 turms, no specific data.)
Germany (Many, no specific data)
Italy (191 in total, 91+pz.I turrets, many Pantherturm, possibly many more Italian turrets though it's uncertain these were finished)
Balkans (409 turrets, mostly Pz.1&2)
North Africa (Dug in Matildas)
Finland (Many, primarily captured Soviet types)
Far East (Handful of dug in Ha-go & Chi-ha)
The above doesn't include the Sockellafetten mounts of tank guns.
Panther turrets specifically:
Stahluntersatz (metal base).
Atlantic/West wall - 119
Italy - 18
East - 6
Total - 143
Atlantic/West wall - 63
Italy - 30
East - 30
Schools/Experimental - 2
Total - 125
Overall Panther total - 268.
Cool! Thanks . Especially the Panther turrets on the West Wall.
I've just subscribed to WWII forum to let you know a discovery in a recently dismitted military base in Italy were is a bunker with a M15/42 tank turret.
At this link a video YouTube - Torrette di carri armati della Seconda Guerra Mondiale nell'ex polveriera di Alice Castello