The Lebensraum Lie - Theory

The argument that Barbarossa was necessary to prevent the loss of the war is something very valid.

If someone else was ruling Germany, WWII still would happen and more than probably also Barbarossa . And the outcome would be the same .

One can not explain everything by referring to Hitler .

 

Not by mad men , but by intelligent criminals

 

Who was an intelligent criminal? There was nothing intelligent about the Holocaust.

In Germany you could now expect contact with the prosecution.

In contrast to most of you i knew a lot of people which lived in Nazi-Germany. My impression was, that they liked what Hitler called Volksgemeinschaft (especially the younger ones) and the econimical success, of course they didn't know where it came from.
But everything else wasn't widely popular and jews weren't an issue for normal people, there weren't much and a lot of them were important for the society, even Hitler himself knew a doctor and he protected him.

You could survive the war as a jew in Germany, when you were lucky. The regime didn't dare to do what they did everywhere else and there was a reason for it.

 

I see : you belong to the generation who has been learnt that evil does not exist on earth,and that people as Hitler were not criminals but madmen . This is totally wrong :Hitler was responsible for Auschwitz and thus a criminal;a madman could not organize the Holocaust, only an intelligent criminal could do this . A madman could not occupy the greatest part of Europe, only an intelligent person could do this .

Saying that Hitler was a madman, that Eichmann was a madman, that Himmler, etc .. were madmen,is to deny that they were criminals.

If they were madmen, fools, how could they organize the Holocaust .

I thought that the claim of Hitler the Teppichfresser was debunked and buried .

Those who met Hitler before the war (Lloyd George, Chamberlain, etc...) were convinced they had met an intelligent person, not a madman .

 

This is another of your classic circular arguments.

Barbarossa had to happen to prevent Germany from losing the war, yet Germany was destined to lose the war no matter what they did. If nothing they could do would prevent their loss, then nothing is vital (or valid) for them to do to prevent a loss of the war other than avoid the war altogether.

To say that no matter who ruled Germany WWII was inevitable is plainly absurd. Had the Weimar Republic never fell, War in Europe becomes highly unlikely if not almost impossible beyond regional conflicts. Even if the Soviet Union were to get adventurous in the absence of a Nazi-Soviet Pact like agreement, would not necessarily trigger a 'world war'. A NATO-Soviet like cold war would be more likely develop a decade earlier than it did, though absent a US at least initially.

 

Chamberlain??? He said that Hitler is a person "who had missed the bus"! And this was one of his nicer descriptions.

Hitler didn't organize anything around the Holocaust, where have you heard or read this nonsense? The Himmlers and Eichmanns were talented organizers and that's about it. In almost every other aspect of life they weren't very successful. And they were criminals, that's true.
They were somewhere between stupid and intelligent.

The SS-Guys/Antisemitists turned out to be of average intelligence during their trials:
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/meetthedefendants.html

An intelligent person wouldn't start a costly, time and work consuming program against a more or less unimportant minority when the nation needs every man, every bullet, every train, every guard ... to win a war. This is simply stupid.

The work of the Einsatzgruppen was to kill all the Jews and Commies as soon as possible, where is the genius about that? They turned a german friendly population immediatly in a german hating population or even partisans.

 

Marshall Foch would disagree with you : he said that the Treaty of Versailles was only a truce of 20 years .

And about Weimar, you forget that for the politicians of Weimar the existence of an independant Poland with the borders of 1919 was inacceptable . WWII was not caused by the existence of Hitler,it was caused by the Treaty of Versailles and by the refusal of Germany to accept this treaty and by the refusal of the new states to give up their independance and to become German satellites .

 

There was no German friendly population : the existence of such a population is a post war invention of the German generals to blame Hitler for the defeat . Besides, the populations of the occupied countries remained indifferent to the Holocaust:no one cared about the Jews and no one would risk his live for the Jews . It was the same in Germany :no one moved at the Kristallnacht, no one reacted when the German Jews were transported to the East, but there was a lot of opposition to the euthanasia policy of the regime, and...the regime retreated .

 

I see you are looking at the Tarot cards again.

 

Sorry, but you are wrong. Hate is a sign of low intelligence. It's easy to hate. Understanding and coexistence is a sign of intelligence.

 

Chamberlain thought he was intelligent, case closed. Did you really use Chamberlain to support your argument?

Never said he wasn't intelligent. I agree that he was. Any student of history would agree. But he was no genius, as others have stated and you have inferred. He bluffed his way through the early years and developed an economy that was based on nothing. You know very well that his economic policy and such would have never resulted in significant financial gains and was a bandaid..

Hitler was an intelligent bully, that is all. He was the perfect man for an angry culture of hate and violence. Intelligences vary in degrees and content.

 

A dictator can only rule if he has the approval of the population, for an American this is very difficult to understand and almost impossible to admit,because it debunks thr Declaration of Independence . To have this approval, the dictator needs

a secret police (the importance of which is always exaggerated) to persecute and keep silent the opponents

a propaganda organisation to hide his failures and to highlight his successes

successes:domestic successes are indespensable : work, housing, schools, social security,....without these, the dictator is doomed .

No one will deny that the nazi regime had obtained spectacular successes in these matters :there was at the outbreak of the war a shortage of workers,while in Britain and the US there were still millions of unemployed . If Hitler was stupid, he would not have obtained these successes,the fact that a lot of them were obtained by robbing Peter to pay Paul ,is irrelevant . If there were still 6 million of unemployed in Germany in 1939, the regime would have collapsed . Millions of people in and outside Europe were fascinated by the economic successes and dynamic of Germany and thousands were willing to try the same receipts of which they thought they would solve the economic crisis.

 

Would Germany still be destined to lose the war if they forced England to capitulate and therefore could recruit men for forced labor and forced troop conscription to fight the Russians? It would be tough for the USA to get its men and materiel over there when there was no where to go.

 

Yes Germany would still lose.

 

And a military intervention of the US would not be needed .

 

Is that if England takes the peace deal and isn't subjugated or if England becomes subservient to Germany and forfeits men for labor and military. Because then I think Germany would be Russia.

 

Im yet to see or hear anything that puts Hitler anywhere near the genius level...this is tripe from Authors trying to sell copies and programs...Above average is honestly where I think his intelligence lies...and that's it. Charisma and being a good orator (I don't even think he was that) don't equal intelligence. He made mistake after mistake...had luck that was attributed wrongly to his intelligence. And took credit for others bravery and thinking.
His ego on the other hand, was stupendous.

 

Although difficult, i never heard of estimated Hitler IQs below 140 which means...far away from average.
He had an astonishing memory, never forgot anything or anyone, and he had his own theory which rules determine human history, similar to Marx for example. And his theory was as logical as Communism was.

In Winter 1932/33, when he refused to join the government without being chancellor, he was heavily criticised and attacked mainly from the SA, and then he simply told them to wait, a better situation will follow soon, and again he was right.

There are two Hitlers, the successful one between 1933 and 1941 and the miserable one between 1942 and 1945.

His opponents were at least as clever as him (Churchill, Roosevelt), that was bad luck but fits in his own theory that the more capable race will prevail.

 

140 is laughable...

 

He was right because he pushed his own idea and agenda. It wasn't an hypothesis that came to fruition, he knew what he was going to do and bullied his way into it. He was intelligent , I can't argue that, but intelligences vary across the spectrum. His bull headed stance on politicking was part intelligence and part ego. His strategy of strength was very successful, but not genius. He was surrounded by complacent countries who wanted nothing to do with aggression.