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The MP-44

Discussion in 'Weapons & Technology in WWII' started by John Dudek, Nov 4, 2001.

  1. John Dudek

    John Dudek Member

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    Hi Guys. What do you esteemed, Gentlemen think the overall-effect would be, had the MP-44 been the common, infantry weapon of the German forces by early 1944? For my money, it would have caused many problems with the Anglo-American forces,not to mention the Russians. I think basic, infantry tactics would have had to be changed, or modified, both in the Allied and Axis camps. I'll leave it up to the more enlightened members of our group to give me the lowdown. Best wishes, John. ;) [​IMG]
     
  2. talleyrand

    talleyrand Member

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    The Wehrmacht wanted to place a semi-auto rifle into production before the war as they had seen both the Garand and AVS introduced in the US and USSR. Walther and Mauser both had prototypes of new self loading designs based on the K98, which the army was testing. Many examples of both the Walther and Mauser design saw action in Op Barbarossa for proof of concept trials. Both fired standard 7.92mm ammo. The Mauser prototype proved completely unsuitable for combat due to reliability issues, thus the Walther design was standardized as the Gewehr 41(W)and entered operational service in late '41.
    During this time Hitler himself intervened and declared that semi-auto rifles would encourage landser to waste precious ammo, that a bolt action would force the soldat's to properly aim and conserve ammo. So he banned all auto-loading rifles from Wehrmacht service.
    The Wehrmacht, for the most part, ignored this order and kept the G41 in front line service. The soldats actually using the G41's pretty much hated them. The charging system it used, called the Bang system, which used gasses trapped at the muzzle to drive the reloading cycle. This charging machanism was far more complicated than it needed to be and was easily fouled or damaged, thus was very prone to failure. Jamming was a constant issue. This also made the G41 extremely heavy, making it difficult to pack around and uncomfortable to use. Plus the G41 was difficult to manufacture, by summer '42 only a few thousand G41's had been issued, nearly every one of them to the Eastern Front. It was there in the winter of '41/'42 the Germans first were able to lay hands on an example of the Russian AVS and saw first hand the gas operating system the Soviets used. The Soviet AVS tapped gases from the barrel, not all the way from the muzzle as the G 41 did, plus the Soviet system was also far less complex. The Germans quickly realized they could easily adapt this system to the G41, and the G43, a G41 with a copied Soviet charging mechanism, was born. The first production G43's left the factory in January '43, the last G41 was built in March, they were phased out as quickly as possible, later they were removed from service. The G43 also incorporated a detachable 10 round magazine. The G43 was well loved and proved such a fine weapon it's production was increased as much as possible. The demand for the G43 became so great, a simplified version for faster production was introduced late in '43 dubbed the Karabiner 43 or K43. The G43 and K43 served in larger numbers than the StG44 and continued to be produced even after the war.
    The StG44 was a better weapon for close combat conditions due to its higher capacity and full auto option, but the G43 stayed in front line service as a sniper weapon with several Eastern Bloc countries well into the sixties. The full size 8mm round the G43 used, opposed the Kurz or short round the StG44 used, provided plenty of power for longer reach, but also kicked like a mule when you went full on Rock and Roll , causing very poor accuracy for sustained fire.
    The above is from an earlier post, but does its job chronicaling the history of German auto-loaders. The StG(MP)44 would come to the party to late. Maybe a better question is why it took over a year to put the G43 in production and why they didnt produce more of them. What happens if the G42(not G43 anymore) came out in summer of '42? and what if they manage to produce hundreds of thousands of them? StG men complementing all G42 wielding landser's would be a lot tougher for the Allies to face.

    [ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: talleyrand ]
     
  3. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    VERY well said Tally.

    Had they been issued much sooner in the war--they would have played hell with the Allies.
     
  4. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Talley and others, interesting that you mentioned the G43 as a sniper weapon. many of the snipers thought the rifle a piece of junk and stayed with the K 98 with rail mounts. Wasn't the Stg 44 the predessor of the modern day AK 47 ? I have to totally agree if there would of been more squads equipped with this rapid fire weapon, things might have been slightly different, especially on the Ost Front.

    E
     
  5. talleyrand

    talleyrand Member

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    Calling the StG 44 the AK-47's forebearer will cause heated arguments in certain
    circles.
    AK-47 proponents always state that the StG couldnt have been made without a stolen Russian charging system, and the AK-47 would have been made whether the StG 44 was ever built or not. The AK was the obvious next step from the Tokarev auto loaders.
    StG 44 guys now, they all say that the StG was the father of all modern small arms and the Soviets would never have come up with the AK had they not had captured StG to copy.
    In my opinion, I would have to say the truth is somewhere in between.
    Many soldiers of the time disliked auto loaders because of the bad performance of previous models. The G41 stained the auto-loaders reputation pretty bad, proving the G43 had to be a decent rifle to be accepted. Even today I can find police officers who swear auto's are garbage and still carry a .357. Professionals go with what they know.
    As for not being liked by many snipers, I can easily believe that. The G43 was heavier, by several pounds than the K98. A G43 with a large Zeiss scope probably weighed a ton. Plus, it would start to jam if not maintained and cleaned very well. The G43 required more maintenance than the K98, it had many more moving parts.
    The K43 was not the same weapon. It was built much cheaper, especially later in the war they were made with steel wire or plastic stocks, and the internal parts were of much lower quality. Many K43's have tool marks on the outside of the weapon, and burrs still on them. They were cranked out as fast as possible, using stampings instead of machined parts, and were not they high of quality. Many werent even blued. I wouldnt want to use one as a sniper rifle. Many more K43's were built than G43's.
     
  6. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    I think the debate could go on for some time between the Russian and the German proponents. Funny how the Ak 47 and the other Soviet/Chinese look a like's resemble this German weapon. As to a German sniper rifle, give me miy K 98 any day with a good scope........ :cool:

    E
     
  7. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Great stuff Tally, but, I guess I have to side with the MP 43 and STG 44 circles as to what came out first.

    The STG 44 came out years before Klashnikov, came out with his version of an assault rifle. The AK was released in 1947' thus AK-47. MP 43 was on the drawing boards as early as 1941--to the best of my knowledge. Was tested in 1942 in combat on the Eastern front, and produced and sent to equip special units in '43.

    The Feldgendarmerie were issued with them as well as Jagers-some Fallschirm, and other special forces. Ive seen winter of 43' photos of German Ski Troops with the MP-43 which is what the STG 44 was the improved version of. Kalashnikov somewhat copied the STG to make the AK.

    Although he will NEVER admit to it. Its just like saying Georg Luger didnt borrow from the American mede Borshardt pistol to which Georg Luger created the infamous P-08 Luger.

    Another famouse example is the Winchester verses the Henry Rifle. Henry borrowed from Winchester and tried to make a better rifle. The Winchester is still way more popular that the Henry. ;)
     
  8. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    And just to add to the units given the Stg 44, there were Waffen SS units engaged on the Ost Front in 1945 with the full heavy reversible autumn camo with white reversible colour and pleanty of Panzerfausts, grenades and my favorite, Panzerschreck 54's. These guys meant business.....

    E
     
  9. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    One photo I saw from Remys personal photo album was a photo of a Waffen SS soldire equippes with an STG 44, with sniper scope and a light mounted onto it. This soldier definately meant business too. I wonder if I can somehow get copies of some of these photos from Remy--these are difinately some very interesting movement and combat photos.
     
  10. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Carl :

    Yes, I'll gladly take one of those W-SS pics if available.......

    Treats !

    :cool: E
     
  11. talleyrand

    talleyrand Member

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    The StG 44 was on the drawing board of Louis Schmeisser in 1941. But that design had the Bang charging system, which proved to be junk. The MK 42(H) was the first model that had pre-production rifles tested in combat, this model used the copied Soviet AVS charging system. About 600 were produced in 1942.
    The Kalashnikov bureau designed and built a carbine version of the AVT40 in 1942 with full/semi auto select fire. It was several inches shorter than the AVT40 with a pistol grip added. It suffered from terrible recoil problems using 7.62X54, and was not widely accepted. After MP43's using Kurz rounds were captured the Soviets came up with 7.62X39.
    Both sides copied so much stuff from each other its hard to delineate who actually created what.
    The Germans invented the ammo, the Russians invented a workable charging system. Neither rifle would have been any good without the other.
     
  12. Andreas Seidel

    Andreas Seidel Member

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    Don't have time to read through all of this, but here's what I know:

    The AK-47 and MP 44 look alike from the outside, and partly the AK-47 may have been inspired by the MP 44. However on the inside, they are completely different! Compare a G 3 to the MP 44 and MP 45 now... it's the same system in a NATO calibre!!

    One thing almost nobody knows about is that Shpagin designed a successor to his famous submachine gun called the PPSh-2 or PPSh-42 I think. It looks like a prototype AK-47, and was made in 1942. It was turned down because it was deemed to expensive to manufacture or something. Anyway, the direction things were going in were clear.
     
  13. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    True but, the russian ideas and improvements came from the German weapon-basically as was stated above. I know that Kalashnikov was the one to improve the charging system in a russian tommygun, and had also came up with another totally new type weapon which was deemed too complex for the average red, to be able to use. Kalashnikov at that time, was a Suverov--Sergeant.
     
  14. talleyrand

    talleyrand Member

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    Tokarev, I meant. Tokarev built the AVT-40.
    The Russian rifle worked, just needed a smaller cartridge. The German rifle didnt work.
     
  15. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    No problem, we all make faux paus every now and a then--just take me as a PRIME example. ;)
     
  16. mp38

    mp38 Member

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    I heard someone mention the G3 in all this. The G3 is actually the Mauser Stg45. This prototype was on the drawing board at Mauser, Obendorf, and I believe that they did make a few samples for the Heer. After the war ended, The company of H&K was formed in 1949 by three former Mauser employees in Obendorf. The rest, as they say is history!!

    As far as the effects of the Stg44 in combat, you can just look at the numbers. Every German unit that was issued Stg44s' had much higher kill to loss ratios than any other units!! :eek: If all German units had the Stg 44 by lets say Jan 1944, I think the war might have been different. I don't know if they would have won, but it would have taken a lot longer, and we all know what other wonder weapons they were working on!! If given more time, they may have succeeded! :eek:

    Matt :cool:
     
  17. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Now THATS something I hadnt known. Three former Mauser employees forming H&K? THANKS MATT.
     
  18. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    *bump* - for the 'What If..?' thread.... ;)
     
  19. Tony Williams

    Tony Williams Member

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  20. vonManstein39

    vonManstein39 Member

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    Reading this topic just makes me think even more just how unfortunate the Germans were to have Hitler as Fuhrer.

    Had it not been for the Nazis coming to power the German-Soviet military co-operation between 1922-1932 would have continued as the German generals were concerned more with France and Poland than with Russia. Imagine if both countries actually became full allies and cooperated completely as the UK and US did during WWII.

    The best of German and Soviet technology combined. German automatic weapons, G-43 and StG44 (with different names) being developed with Soviet help. Fw-190 with superior Soviet ShVak cannon and Soviet air-to-ground rockets. T-34 equipped with German optical sights and high-velocity German 75mm gun in the Panzer divisions. Soviet Pe-8 4-engined heavy bombers and Il-2 Sturmovik tank-busters in the Luftwaffe. German radar for the Soviets. German-built warships and submarines for the Soviet navy.

    Not to mention plentiful Soviet oil, grain, and strategic raw materials for Germany.

    Together, as full partners, Germany and Soviet Russia would have been virtually unstoppable in Europe and Asia.
     

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