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The myths of WWII (Eastern Europe)

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe' started by LJAd, Mar 14, 2011.

  1. Jager

    Jager Member

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    Tanks is not what America was sending the Soviet Union. By winter of 1941 the US had sent 3 million velenki, thousands of tons of food, and thousands of tons of industrial equipment, and billions of rounds of ammunition. Since the soviets did not have to produce these items they could use more IC to produce other things like tanks. Germany had no such benefit. Most German industry was located in the Ruhr and the only major import Germany relied on was oil from ploesti. All other imports are exponentially smaller than russian imports. If you really think that the small European countries had something to offer Germany that is even close to what the Soviet Union recieved from America then please show some numbers. btw here is a detailed list of materials that russia recieved from america. Complete List of Lend Lease to Russia including atomic materials
     
  2. Jager

    Jager Member

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    Even though this is not my argument here is a tank stat "The tanks reached the front lines with extraordinary speed. Extrapolating from available statistics, researchers estimate that British-supplied tanks made up 30 to 40 percent of the entire heavy and medium tank strength of Soviet forces before Moscow at the beginning of December 1941, and certainly made up a significant proportion of tanks available as reinforcements at this critical point in the fighting" Did Russia Really Go It Alone? How Lend-Lease Helped the Soviets Defeat the Germans, Page 2
     
  3. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    LL to Russia is common knowledge. Most widely accepted numbers..... Roughly 8-12% of what the Soviet Union actually needed.

    Your source is not new. LL very helpful in saving lives and shortening the war, but not the deciding factor.
     
  4. Jager

    Jager Member

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    10 percent of all russian war materials is pretty significant. russia fielded 20 million men. 10 percent of that would be 2 million. so russia tech would not be able to equip 2 million of their soldiers under that impression. removing 10 percent of something is a big difference.
     
  5. Jager

    Jager Member

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    and at the time the lend lease first arrived it greatly made up for IC that russia lost from the initial invasion and relocating industry.
     
  6. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    This is not the point :the point is that in 1941,the L-L from the US to the SU was insignifiant,and had no influence on what happened.
    The SU stopped the Germans 1)at the end of the summer 2)and again at the end of the autumn,and,in both cases,the L-L from the US played no part .
    About the role of US L-L AFTER 1941,that's an other question,but ,I am sure,it has already been discussed.
     
  7. Jager

    Jager Member

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    How was LL not significant in 1941 please prove it. I just posted 3 different things that say it did in 1941. Notably more than half of all russian ammunition and explosives was US made. more than half of all military clothing and food was american. aaprox. more than 80 percent of the 4 wheel and 6 wheel drive trucks that helpoed the russians move materials in the winter of 1941 while the germans were using horse drawn wagons were american made. Almost all of the industrial equipment provided by america is what allowed russian industrial production to grow in a way similar to that of the US throughout the entire war. If the russians would have had to be building billions of rounds of ammuntion, processing packaging and distributing all the food required to maintain its huge army, and building the thousands of light and heavy vehicles required to maintain supply and transportation then, the russian war machine at the very least would of been less effective. Germany on the other hand did recieve some imports but other than oil from the balkans and if you like the Panzer 38(t) from the czechs. Otherwise, the Germans recieved nothing.
     
  8. Jager

    Jager Member

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    otherwise prove it wrong.
     
  9. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Being indignant,instead of thinking that what you are writing,was impossible in 5 months(what was arriving at Wladiwostok after november, is irrelevant), is not a good tactic.
    It is on you to prove that it was possible .
    In 1941,there were 2 routes for L-L
    1) The Arctic Convoys to Archangelsk and Murmansk:a mixture of British and US materials
    2) The Pacific Route:eek:nly US material .
    The Arctic Convoys (in total 106 merchant ships, minus the losses ) started in september :I have seen no detailed figure of what was transported by Britain /the US by these convoys:exception 487 British tanks
    For the Pacific Route , there is nothing .
    The only thing we know is that in 1941 487 British tanks were transported (8 % of the Russian tankstrength on 1 december 1941 and...182 US tanks(....3% of the Russian tankstrength on 1 december)
    About the trucks :citing irrelevant % is an old trick:80 % of the 6 and 8 wheel trucks being made in the US is meaningless,unless you could give the exact numbers:80 % of 100 trucks is 80,but that number would be insignifiant .On the other hand,the Russians had 235000 trucks on 1 december,do you pretend that the US transported more than 188000 in 5 months to the SU ?Because,in 1941,the US built ...183.614 military trucks .:D
    You also claim that in 1941,the US produced more than the half of the Russian ammunition production,and were transporting this to the SU .What do you mean with ammunition production ? the ammunition for tanks,aircraft,artillery,submachine guns,machineguns,rifles ?How much from each ? What was transported via the Pacific,and what by the Arctic convoys ?
    Unless you can answer these questions,I have to assume that your claims are gathered from popular US magazines as Readers Digest .
     
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  10. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    And,by using a serious site (Sturmvogel),I discovered what I suspected already :that you can't read English (an other possibility is that you are giving deliberately false informations):the explosives :you said that more than the half of the Russian amount of explosives in 1941,was made in the US.Now,what is saying my source :during WWII,L-L supplied 317900 tons of explosives,while the Russian production was 600000.Saying that this happened in 1941,is not telling the truth ,unless you can give the Russian production for 1941, and prove that for 100 tons the Russians were producing in 1941,L-L by the US was adding more than 50.
    About the ammunition,you said that more than the half of the Russian ammunition in 1941 was US made,well,the Russian production in 1941 of Artillery,Mortars and Rocket only (!) was 71 million of rounds,thus, you are saying that between 22 june and 31 december,the US produced 36 million of rounds for the Russian artillery,mortars and rockets? And were transporting them ?
    I have no figures for the rounds for rifles,machine guns,etc,etc,but we can safely assume that this was 71 million multiplied by at least 20,let's say 1,5 billion .If you are thinking that the US produced and transported in 6 months some 750 millions of bullets,well,you should first think and,than write .
     
  11. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Some times,I am despairing of the intelligence of mankind .
    In the source which is given by Jager(Complete List of Lend Lease to Russia),it is also claimed that Harry Hopkins was a Russian agent .While I have no sympathy at all for Roosevelt,Hopkins,etc ..,claiming (without any proof) that Hopkins was a Russian agent,is stupid .Even Joe McCarthy was wiser .
    Btw:the source is of course useless,because it is giving us nothing about LL in 1941.
     
  12. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Glad you spotted that Ljad.... I have seen that same source before and shrugged it off as its not an official document glad someone else noticed:)
     
  13. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The same source also claims that the SU received 16 million of combat boots from the US,now,following Hyperwar,the US produced 26 million of combat boots in WWII.I must say that I am doubting that more than 60 % of these boots would go to the SU.
     
  14. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    One exemple of the danger of giving meaningless, out of context, figures:
    The following is the production (monthly) of the 6X6 Studebaker in 1941(production was starting in june 1941)
    June:137
    July:258
    august:106
    september:319
    october:1446
    november:1256
    december:1202
    If we are omitting december (because,the 6X6 produced in december would not arrive to the front in 1941),and If NONE of what was produced was going to the US Armed Forces/Britain, and if all the remainder arrived safely in the SU,than we would have 3522 of these 6 X6 in 1941 in the SU.As the SU armed forces had 235000 trucks in december 1941,the importance of these 3522 trucks would be insignifiant .Thus,to say that 8O % of the 6X6 and 6X4 trucks in the SU were made in the US, and to use this as an argument, is, IMHO,proving

    a) that one has an agenda

    or b) that one is unable to use statistics
     
  15. Jager

    Jager Member

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    According to the detailed list link i posted above lists shipments by year the numbers included "400,000 AA guns 99 mm., 20000 aircraft machine guns, 50000 tank guns, 20000 naval guns, 10000 50 caliber rounds, 20000 50 caliber armor piercing rounds, 20000 incendiary rounds, 3,300,163 small arms rounds, 2000000 lbs of dynamite, 10000 lbs of blast gelatine, 8000000 lbs of TNT, 700000 lbs of explosives, 250,000,000 lbs of alcohol (used for molotovs, and medical purposes)" im not going to continue because there is 12 pages of things during the first shipments. other notes from the first shipments 37 different types heavy machinery were sent by the thousands, and quantities of food are in such bulk that they are just listed and the quantities say N.C.E. (non confirmable, estimate) finally "The U.S. Government has never released detailed reports on what was sent in Lend-Lease, so Major Jordan's data, gleaned from the Russians' own manifests, is the only public record. More than one-third of Lend-Lease sent was illegal under the terms of the act"
     
  16. Jager

    Jager Member

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    also btw if you remember what this claim was all about. Stopping Lend Lease wasnt vital to winning the war in 1941. The claim was 90 percent of Lend Lease came to russia from the far east via rail and was then distributed north or south to where needed from Moscow, thus increasing Moscow's importance as a distribution hub. One of the factors increasing the strategic importance of moscow was that it would cut off or delay alot of the supplies that russia needed to re vamp its production as russian production would take almost 2 years to exceed pre war levels. This along with many other factors that were noted made capturing moscow strategically important to Bock and Guderian. (both of whom were unaware of the amounts of lend lease but knew that moscow would force an entire re structuring plan for moscow in areas of logistics, politics, communication, and all the others i mentioned. I am really starting to get annoyed that people in this forum assume everything that is against their POV is fake and made up. Once again the numbers are from Russian manifests released after the collapse of the soviet union. Not the US which never released any information because most of the things it sent to russia were illegal.
     
  17. Jager

    Jager Member

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    Please spend more time proving your claims (and staying on topic) as opposed to putting all your efforts in simply proving another person "fake" "made up" or "a lie". I posted 3 different links to 3 different sources that all support the same evidence in some way. Maybe if i provided one source while you provided numerous sources that showed my claims are false then you would have had an argument. However, when i post multiple sources written by multiple people all implying similar things then that tends to be more credible then somebody assuming that everything on "sturmvogel" is automatically true because YOU THINK IT IS. I dont have time to argue with people who act like little kids and point fingers accusing the other of lying. Please make a real argument and just provide information you have. After that only can common grounds be reached.
     
  18. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    All irrelevant,because
    a)your list is suspected
    b) it is giving figures about L-L during WWII,and the threzd is :LL in 1941
     
  19. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The claim that 9O % of LL to Russia came from the Far East via rail is NONSENS.Never heard of LL shippings going to Russia via the ME? Of course not.
    How could you know that most of the things the US government was sending to Russia was illegal? Maybe from the stupid one who claimed that Hopkins was a Soviet agent ?
    If the US never released any information , how can you claim that in 1941 more than the half of the Soviet ammunition was made in the US?And,why are you giving then the source"Complete list of LL to Russia"?
     
  20. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Who said in post 135 that LL for Russia started in march 1941, proving he did not know that Russia was at war on 22 june? Was it Santa Claus ? I don't think so .
    Who said, in the same post,that without LL the SU could not build 3000 T34 tanks,because without LL,it had to build ,in 1941,20000 light vehicles, hundred thousands tons of food for its army and a couple million bots,thus implying that the SU received these things in a few months in 1941 from LL?
    Was santa Claus posting these things ?
    Who said in post 132 that the fall of Moscow would separate Western Russia from Siberia and that in 1941, the SU received MOST of its military goods and CG's from the East, and that therefore Moscow was vital ? Again Santa Claus ?
    Who said that in 1941 most of the Russian ammunition was made in the US,and who is now saying (in post 156)that:"stopping LL wasn't vital to win the war in 1941".Maybe Santa Claus,or some one hoping that no one would remember what he said in post 132?
     

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