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The "Ribbentrop" pact 1939

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe October 1939 to February 1943' started by Kai-Petri, Jul 9, 2003.

  1. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Why did not the French and the British succeed in making a pact with Stalin.Probably many reasons but in the final meters something like this might be decisive...

    From Dmitri Vologonov´s Stalin 1989

    In August 1939 the British and the French military mission icluded names like Drax, barnett, Heywood, Doumenc, Valin and Vuillaume.

    Admiral Drax was recently made Naval Adjutant to the King and held the Tsarist Order of St Stanislav.Doumenc would become member of french Supreme Defence in November 1939.

    Stalin saw that apart from a few generals , most of the delegates were relatively junior officers. He could not believe the western allied really meant to negotiate at all.

    ..............

    http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2000-12-08/books_vsbr2.html

    Before Poland was invaded, Chamberlain tried to do the sensible thing, and come to terms with Stalin. But he entrusted this crucial task to a non-entity with the Wodehousian name of Admiral Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax. The Soviets apparently found Drax's Order of Bath particularly humorous, as they were under the impression that it referred to a washtub rather than the resort town. While Drax took a slow steamer to Leningrad, and then pottered about Moscow, doing a spot of touring, Germany was sending out its own feelers. Finally, Ribbentrop arrived, and on August 25, Drax left the USSR. Two days before, Stalin had signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, which officially allied the USSR and Germany. On September 1, Hitler, moving an army considerably faster than Admiral Drax had moved his diplomatic entourage, invaded Poland, thus bringing an inglorious end to the Blandings castle world of the Draxes.

    :eek:
     
  2. Juha Tompuri

    Juha Tompuri Member

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  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Thanx Juha!

    BTW, I finished my school in 1985 in Myllykoski...
    the world is small...

    ;) :eek:
     
  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Some thoughts by Admiral Kuznetsov:

    http://admiral.centro.ru/memor04.htm

    Admiral Drax was in the focus of attention. He was a tall, spare and grey-haired man, prim and supercilious. He paid special attention to the observance of etiquette. He spoke slowly and pompously giving preference to subjects that were remote from the purpose of his mission. We had to listen to his endless comment on the recent regatta of sea-going yachts at Portsmouth. It seemed that Drax had come for a holiday and not to solve important questions of the utmost urgency.

    At our meeting on the following day we presented our credentials which empowered us "to engage in talks with the British and French military missions and to sign a military convention on the organisation of military defence of Great Britain, France and the USSR against aggression in Europe." But we were to discover that our colleagues had not brought the necessary papers with them. The French General Doumenc produced a paper carrying no definite statement. It merely said that the general was authorised "to come to agreement with the High Command of the Soviet Armed Forces on all matters bearing on the entry into co-operation between the armed forces of both sides".

    Admiral Drax was unable to produce any papers at all. He was not provided with written credentials vesting him with powers.

    Having failed in his role Drax, however, was not in the least embarrassed. He said that if the talks were transferred to London he would produce the proper credentials in no time.

    At the meeting on August 14 we asked the British and the French how they proposed to employ the huge Allied army, if Nazi Germany should attack Poland. Poland was the most probable victim of Nazi aggression. It was also necessary to give thought to Germany's possible attack on Romania and the Baltic countries.

    Our partners started to beat the air. Resorting to delay tactics they refrained from taking practical decisions.

    -------------

    I think there´s alot of propaganda on the site as well but it seems that the western allied did not try too seriously to make a deal with the Russians, which led Stalin to Hitler instead...

    Anyway, Hitler would have had quite alot to thinkabout if there had been a pact between the Soviet Union, Great Britain and France :

    The parties exchanged information on the size of the armed forces. The French were the first to report. According to General Doumenc France could muster 110 divisions, 4,000

    tanks, 3,000 large calibre artillery pieces (of 150 mm and bigger) and close to 2,000 first line fighting aircraft.

    The British were unwilling to state what forces they had in the island. They mentioned only the forces they were ready to move to the continent. It turned out that, if war broke out, they would be able to send only six divisions, urgently form nine and later prepare for departure another 16 divisions. Nobody said concretely what the word "later" meant. As Air Chief Marshal Burnett put it, the Royal Air Force comprised 3,000 aircraft of different types.

    Marshal of the Soviet Union B.M. Shaposhnikov, Chief of General Staff, said that in the event of aggression in Europe the Soviet Union would provide 120 infantry and 16 cavalry divisions, 9,000-10,000 tanks, more than 5,000 large calibre artillery pieces alone, and 5,500 aircraft.

    ---------

    Hmmmmm.....
     
  5. Juha Tompuri

    Juha Tompuri Member

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    You´re welcome!
    I graduated the local high school...1982 [​IMG]

    Regards, Juha
     
  6. Vermillion

    Vermillion Member

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    I did my MA thesis on the negotiating strategy of the French in July and August of 1939 with regards to the possibility of a Anglo-French-Soviet pact.

    The French took a backseat to the British and let them control the negotiations (much to the detrement of the negotiations) but they had their own strategy and plans, and were willing to compromise a lot more than the British were in order to obtain an alliance with the USSR. Britain saw no real rgency to the discussions, as they saw a nazi-Soviet pact as an impossibility. France saw the reality, and pressed herd, but were unable to overcome the intransigence of the British government and negotiating team...
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Welcome Vermillion!

    Indeed, I think by underestimating Stalin they gave the cards to Hitler in this case...

    As well I think Stalin had some requirements that were tough to handle: The Russian troops could enter Poland and Rumania to help against Nazi Germany ( to settle this kinda question is not easy...). For Hitler these moves were little pieces of cake, as Poland was already to-be-attacked in his plans.

    :(
     
  8. Mr. Clean

    Mr. Clean recruit

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    Very interesting, I'm glad to be part of a sight, that is full of intelligent insightful people.
     
  9. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Some interesting points on the way towards and during the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact:

    Indeed, between 1936 and early 1939, Ericson chronicles no fewer than six failed attempts to re-establish an economic agreement between the nations with the Soviets trading grain and raw materials for German machinery and weapons. By March 1939, the last in the series of negotiations ended when Hitler refused to pursue them any further.

    ...[the Soviets] finally submitted a forty-eight page, single-spaced list of detailed demands on November 30 ( 1939). Instead of 58 million RM in military goods and the up-front shipment of Russian raw materials called for in the September 28 treaty, the Soviets now wanted an impossible 1.5 billion RM in total deliveries by the end of 1940, 700 million RM from the navy alone, not counting extensive development costs. From ships to aircraft to synthetic fuel plants, the Soviets wanted the best Germany had to offer at rock-bottom prices, and they wanted it all right away! The Germans were stunned.

    Second World War Books: Review
     
  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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  11. efestos

    efestos Member

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    From your Links.
     
  12. ozjohn39

    ozjohn39 Member

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    Kai - Petri,


    "The Soviets apparently found Drax's Order of Bath particularly humorous, as they were under the impression that it referred to a washtub rather than the resort town."


    Actually, the Order of THE Bath is referring to 'bathing' or ritual cleansing (of the Monarch), and does not refer to the ancient Roman city of Bath.


    John.
     
  13. Commissioner

    Commissioner Member

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    Molotov Pact Ribbentroop-contained 23 August 1939 was aimed at Poland and the then signed him two totalitarian states to be able to quietly take down.
    For politicians and public opinion in the West unthinkable alliance between Hitler and Stalin .... and they themselves knew about it but at this time were more important things, like so prepare both countries to war, and thus shift the economy at the time war.
    After the signing of the Treaty of Versailles, June 28, 1919, Germany could not have armor or aviation.
    Stalin allowed the Germans production and testing equipment at their training grounds in exchange for access to technical plans, etc.
    In addition to this, Stalin sent a huge amount of raw materials (iron ore, nickel, copper, etc.)
    Yes, Hitler and Stalin knew that the conflict between national socialism and communism is inevitable ...... only Stalin woke up too late .....
     
  14. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    But wait, there's more.... Under the plan the Russians were also able to inspect all of German weapons without the "vise versa"... It was for this reason the Germans noted (after the Russians inspected their newest tank PZIV) that they were "unimpressed", noting that they must have had something better in the works....... They would later find out, the T34.

    Amazing how both stuck to the agreement....
     
  15. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Later on I have read that Stalin expected Germany to use its power empty fighting for a long time in the west after which the Red Army had an easy task taking Germany and perhaps going further to France as well.
     
  16. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

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    This seems particularly significant since the French would presumably play the larger role if it did come to war.

    It may also have influenced Stalin. He knew that he would be fighting real Germans and needed to know that his potential* allies were fully committed. It probably was not reassuring that the negotiations were led by the partner that had the least "skin in the game".

    * added word
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Hitler had decided to start war a long time ago. He could promise simply anything to Stalin as it would only speed his aim to do so.
     

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