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This is what my fellow classmates believe? What Rubbish!

Discussion in 'Free Fire Zone' started by Sherman Tank, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. Sherman Tank

    Sherman Tank Member

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    Hello guys, long time no see eh? I do not know if this is the right place for this but here goes nothing.

    So I am a big user of Facebook and was browsing my status feed on the main page, when one of my friends from high school (my class graduated this Summer) posted something from a group on facebook called Beyond Zeitgeist 2012 is Up.

    that posting is as I quote says the US is the most bloodthirsty nation in world history first off, goes on saying how we have killed the most innocents around the world, that we mass murder millions of innocents. Saying the United States is a terrorist state and a plague on the people of the world and going on to say the United States is a pariah state, an empire of hypocrisy.

    It followed this anti-American rant with a picture titled Let's Be Honest! showing a list of wars the group says shows the US is bloodthirsty and violent and were unjust.

    It follows with a list of wars and dates: (Note dates are from the picture)

    The Revolutionary War 1775-1783
    The War of 1812 1812 1814
    The Mexican American War 1836-1848
    The American Civil War 1861-1865
    The Spanish American War 1897-1898
    The Indian American Wars 1775-1918
    World War I 1914-1918
    World War II 1941-1945
    Cold War 1945-1992
    The Korean War 1950-1953
    The Vietnam War 1962-1973
    The Invasion of Grenada 1983-1984
    The Invasion of Panama 1989
    Operation Desert Storm 1991-1992
    Operation Desert Shield 1992-1995
    Operation Determined Falcon 1998-1999
    Operation Enduring Freedom 2001-2011
    Operation Iraqi Freedom 2003-2011
    Operation Freedom Falcon 2011-Ongoing

    It then shows 2012 and says loading...
    Followed by the picture saying we have been a country for 235 years and have been at war for 209 years.


    And he had over 35 of my former classmates liking it, via the like button... I want to step up and debate this stupid posting of his, he (my friend who posted this) said on the status itself states this Facebook posting is 100 percent fact, but I would like some input from you guys on this Facebook posting of his with some facts that rebuttal it of course. Thanks
     
  2. sunny971

    sunny971 Ace

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    Well your classmate should move to Switzerland if he's so disgusted with the wars the US has been in.. He and all his friends should thank their lucky asses that the United States won some of those wars, otherwise some of us would be sitting in classrooms memorizing Mein kampf and singing along to the Anthem of Nazi Germany while the rest of us burn in extermination camps.

    This left me no choice but to bring up a famous quote.....

    "Nothing in this world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity"
    - Martin Luther King Jr.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    There are loonies of all types out there.

    "this is a list of all the unjust wars the US was involved in"

    Considering we're only two hundred odd years old there are several countries with longer lists.
     
    Sherman Tank likes this.
  4. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Oh, that makes a change; it's usually the British.....:rolleyes:
     
    Sherman Tank likes this.
  5. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    I'd ask him to pick out any one of those on the list and then ask what would have happened if the USA had not been involved. Excluding the Civil War of course. I think we'd all be interested in hearing his answer.
     
  6. Sherman Tank

    Sherman Tank Member

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    I will without a doubt ask him Biak and provide a reply
     
  7. Gunney

    Gunney Member

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    how is WW2 in that list? America got attacked, note the word ATTACKED by an AXIS nation which dragged themm into the war when they wanted to stay out of it, how in any way is that unjust?
     
  8. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    I'm a bit annoyed he didn't give us credit for the French and Indian War (Seven Years War). Sure, we were just a colony back then, but that's just a technicality.

    :cool:
     
  9. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    Hey, give him credit for getting most of the dates right, although US involvement in WW1 only began in 1917.:rolleyes:
     
  10. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    He must have used Wikipedia. :p


    Yes, but if we had been involved sooner it would have been a much less bloody war, so we're to blame for all of it. Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    The idiot left out the Banana Republic wars, the incursions into Soviet territory following WWII (edit - - oops I meant WWI), the Whisky Rebellion, the Barbary Wars, the Cold War, Perry's mission to Japan, the whole mission of the 4th Marines in China, the War of Texas Independence (prior and future Americans), The Mormon War, and the invasion of the Sandwich Islands
    .
     
  12. luketdrifter

    luketdrifter Ace

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    This list has been going around for years...it's the Indian Wars that give it the inflated number, being 143 years long which is nonsense....and the Cold War at another 47. Between the two only about 7 years of actual combat (in the Cold War....none being that Korea and Vietnam have their own labels here) the numbers are skewed at best. Tell your friend to do some actual research or stfu.
     
  13. Sherman Tank

    Sherman Tank Member

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    Sent him a reply, awaiting his response currently. Also Luketdrifter, he is really not one for research since as he also posted facebook, he's one of those 9/11 truther kooks...
     
  14. Clementine

    Clementine Member

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    Well, if the Facebook status says it is true, it must be. Right? Good for you for wanting to debate this, Sherman Tank.

    Sometimes it's really hard to remember that this is what our veterans fought and died for, but it is. I just wish people would remember that just because they have the right to say anything, doesn't mean they necessarily should. I figure it's easy for those of us who have always lived in freedom, to forget how it is we have been so fortunate. It's easy for us to be righteous when we've never had to defend that freedom because someone else was out there putting their life on the line for us.

    I will concede that we probably did start the American Civil War. I was going to blame it on the British.
     
  15. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Does he give any definition of a 'just' war....? :confused: Surely, if those are the 'unjust' ones, there must be some 'just' ones to debate ?
     
  16. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    Why not go through them point by point?

    War of Revolution- Justified....Americans were actually Englishmen at this stage, so it sort of doesn't count until the Declaration of Independence. Nitpicks aside, the defenders felt that they were Englishmen who were not recieving the proper recompense for their contribution to the empire, and that their voices in this matter went unaddressed by England. The slogan "No taxation without representation" says it all.

    War of 1812- Justified...Americans, independent by this stage, suffered an invasion of their soverign territory by a power whose government was still seeking to win back prestige after their defeat in 1783. It should be noted that in 1812, the principal enemy of England ,(and the rest of Europe), was France. Even though America offered no direct help to Napolean's regime, the cultural and economic ties that had been established during the WoR were considered, (unjustifiably) to make America a target for aggression. It didn't take much to put the stops on this war, (it was mainly fought at sea), and England needed naval resources to be free for operations against France.

    Mexican-American War-..Justified....Mexico was ruled by a dictator at this stage, General Lopez De Santa Anna. It was fought principally over who had rights to the region we now know as Texas, and the people of Texas, after suffering a defeat at The Alamo, voted firmly with their feet to end Santa Anna's influence in their region. Establishment of the border along the Rio Grande helped to put Santa Anna in his place, and Mexico was finally defeated and occupied by American forces under General Winfield Scott ("Ol' Fuss and Feathers"), in a lightning campaign of occupation culminating with the fall of Santa Anna. American troops restored order, and left, back across the Rio Grande. No permanent occupaton, just the unseating of a brutal dictator, and the restoration of sane government to their neighbouring country.

    American Civil War...Justified...States Right of Succession and the debate thereof were inconclusive. Sucession took all by suprise with a scramble by 11 states to break away. These 11 states were not very unified, and preferred to be autonimous, making the task of Jefferson Davis almost impossible. Southerners scored some early victories, based on Northern unpreparedness, but the further the war dragged on, the more of a corner the CSA backed itself into. The Emancipation Proclamation in January of 1863 was the single most unpopular document to come out of the Lincoln Whitehouse, but it polarized the nation, giving rise to the inevitable defeat of the CSA. Failure to compromise had cost America more dead and wounded people than all other wars since, and not suprising. All internal, interfactional conflicts usually devolve into bloodbaths, and the ACW was no exception.

    Spanish American War..Confusion...Based on the erronious assumption that the loss of the USN Battleship "Maine" was the responsibility of Spanish insurrectionists in Manila, the United States declared war and fought a quick campaign to rid the Phillipines of Spanish domination. Lots of local support recieved, so it was probably justified in the end. The Phillipines has remained a staunch supporter of the US ever since, even after the failure of US forces to prevent a brutal occupation by Japan from 1941-1944. Phillipinos still have VERY good relations with the US.

    The Indian American Wars...Necessary Evil..This is a contentious issue, but one that had to be taken. Plains Indians were a great menace to the various waves of settlers arriving from the East, and the tit-for-tat atrocities committed by both sides meant the only outcome that was possible from this conflict was the end of the semi-nomadic way of life of the Indians, which was happening anyway as a matter of course. The US government has done it's best to make amends for the wrongs, but the rights of the conflict included making peaceful expansion possible after the ACW, which it wasn't before. Remember, most Indian tribes sided with the Confederates during the ACW, dooming any chance of a negotiated settlement for the many of the issues for both sides. It was a clash of the old world being subdued by the new, and the only outcome was the end of the way of life of the Indians. A more Northern slant to alliances by the various tribes would have seen a different result post ACW, but the government had classified these people as "Hostile", based on their support of the CSA and their curreny behaviour interfearing with the construction of the Trans-Continental Railroad. The end of a way of life for the Indians was inevitable.

    World War I...Justified...Isolationist Americans, wishing to keep out of the terrible conflict gathering pace in Europe during 1914, were rudely awakened by the sinking of the Cunard liner "Lusitania", with the loss of 128 neutral American lives. A presidential protest of the strongest magnitude lead to the cessation of 'unrestricted submarine warfare", but Germany was desperate to make some impact on England, with stalemate on every front. The resumption of this submarine campaign, and the subsequent attacks on NEUTRAL shipping entering the "Total Exclusion Zone" declared in the oceans around England, lead to America having quite enough of Wilhelm II's style of diplomacy, and a declaration of war was the result. The American army of 'doughboys' that arrived with General John J. "Blackjack" Pershing felt that they were actually repaying an old debt to France, summed up by Pershing with the words "Lafayette, we are here!" The influx of American troops and supplies was decisive, ending German expansionism for the time being.

    WW2...JUSTIFIED...if I have to give you a paraphrase of this conflict on a site devoted to WW2, then there would be something wrong. Put simply, American involvement in WW2 ensured Allied victory in the struggle to rid Europe and Asia of fascist militarism. This war of all of them established America as a superpower, principally from the fruits of the notorious "Manhatten Project". Without WW2, it's doubtful whether the "Project" would have been built for many, many, many decades, so thank Hitler for the Bomb, and the never surrender attitude of the ridiculous Japanes Generals for it being used in anger.

    Cold War...Justified...Likewise, if I have to explain why the regime responsible for the most deaths on it's hands in the entire 20th century, (Josef Stalin's Regime), needed to be stopped...there would be something wrong also...

    Do I need to go on? You should be able to see by now what a ridiculous idiot this person is, with a knowledge of American history that leaves me cold. Make no mistake, The United States of America has fought many wars, and thank Christ they have. Their intervention and decisive results have ensured that these fools can say what they like about their own country with no fear of retribution. Point this out also when you rebutt and WIN this debate.
     
  17. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I wonder why you guys even react about this simplistic provocation. It has been initially posted on FB by a U.S. hater, (or if he is an American a disgrace to his own country). He'll probabably invoke Freedom of Speech but by skipping the Revolutionnary war, so never got, and skipped WW2 , so he didn't preserve it..... I suggest he moves to a place where he can drool his junk until he realizes his country is "not so bad".

    ps: Don't send him to Switserland, he might actually like it, because they have a great quality of life there, believe me.
     
  18. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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  19. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Looking at this list the ones I could make some sort of case for being "unjustified" are:
    Now I could also make a case for the above being justified as well and in some if not all it would be a stronger case. Lastly the "cold war" hardly counts as a war particularly as one of the main focuses of both sides was avoiding a real war. The flip side of this would be how many "justified" wars did the US avoid.
     
  20. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    If anyone wishes to correct the various aspects of my post above, feel free. We are informationally arming this fellow, so we should get it right. Any comments welcome....Martin?
     

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