Tiger Vs Churchill - Hill 112

suggest you find some good reads on reality then............game simulations cover what-if's quite nicely but........

~E

 

remember that there were two operations on hill 112. The first (epsom offensive with the 15th Scottish, 43 wessex and the 11th armd cromwells and fireflys)went rather well, but the hill had to be abandoned as the II SS pz Corps pressed to cut the 'Scottish corridor' The next operation Jupiter saw hill 112 conquered permanently.

 

Sorry im late on this one but i'm an avid fan of the Churchill.

I think it is one of the wars success's. Despite being obsolete before it made its combat apperance and being rushed into service before it was ready, it shows that kit can be developed in the field and made a success given time. Originally out of favour with tankers and given a reputation for unreliability, it went on to be a very reliable tank. Its armour although unsloaped like the Tiger, was upto 6 inches thick on the Mk7 and offered crews great protection and on several instances proved a tough nut to crack.

Unfortunately development stopped in 43 on a heavy version of the Churchill and the restarted in 44. Most people know the A43 Black Prince, but only quote stats from its prototype, the production model was intended to have the Rolls Royce Metor engine instead of the Bedford Flat 12. This would have given the Chuchill the speed that would surpass its original varient (estimated 20+mph). The Centurion proved to be a better tank all round but as with all new designs, take time to design and manufacture. The Black Prince was made from 70% Churchill standard parts and so would have been ready alot earlier + you have the instant reliability from a battle proven design.

Learning from what the Germans did wrong with the Tiger and Panther, the British would have been better sticking to upgrading what they had.

If anyone wants any info regarding the Black Prince development, please email me as I have extensive records on the subject.

 

You might be able to help me to reference something that I heard about decades ago: that there was once a stand-up slugging match between a Churchill with a 6 pdr and a Tiger 1, which the Churchill won. It was firing APDS which was able to drill holes through the Tiger's frontal armour, but the Tiger couldn't penetrate the Churchill (which might have had some 'add-on' armour, I'm not sure).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

The first time a Churchill and Tiger met in combat, it was the Churchill which came out the winner
The Churchill was dug-in, and it was too early for APDS, but it seems to fit your description otherwise.Check this web-site
http://www.nih.ww2site.com/nih/Articles/1-2.html

 

Despite the introduction of the 17 Pounder, the 6 Pounder was continually used to great success in Normandy, especially in the towed AT role (It could be towed easily by Jeeps and Carriers)which made it a favorite with airborne forces. Although the Churchill's were fitted at manufacture level from the Mk7 onwards with the British QF75mm (able to use American ammo), as far as tank killing goes the smaller 6 pounder (57mm) equipped Churchill tanks enjoyed superior anti tank capabilities.

 

Theres more importance to Hill 112 than it just being a low angled hump. Ive been there myself and although its hardly noticable as being a hill when reaching it, it does give great views across the countryside. Hill 112 is the highest part of a ridge that runs Southwestwards from Caen and dominates two valleys.

It was the Germans who said that, "he who holds Hill 112, holds Normandy" a reason why they fought so hard for it.

Theres a couple of pictures of Hill 112 or Cornwall hill showing how moonscaped it looked after the battles, very similar to WW1 pictures.

The Germans prepared elaborate field defences in great depth manned by the picked 10th Panzer Division, tough, seasoned and superlatively trained, who would fight to the last to hold the ridge. Their tactics were to lie low at first, in their concealed round holes amid the corn, letting their attackers (And particularly their tanks) pass through with the appearance of and easy victory, then to catch the rearward companies in belts of enfilading cross-fire, while the forward elements, losing impetus against the stiffening resistance from the deep defences ahead of them, found themselves cut off from all support. The defences were backed with artillery and mortars on a lavish scale, besides many Tiger and Panther tanks, S.P. Guns and ‘Moaning Minnies’ or Nebelwerfers.

A friend of mine fought in the villages around Hill 112 and lost 3 friends to MG fire, I visited their graves at Bayeux for him last year. He still finds it very difficult to talk about what happened there. The battles around the Odon are some of the bloodiest of the whole campaign, it is said that at one point the river Odon was was blocked dammed like, because of the bodies in it.

martin mentioned an excellent book on it, and this can still be bought on ebay at times, ive often seen it on there, and sometimes you can pick up a used copy on Amazon. Other good books that cover these battles well are The Wyvern in North West Europe : being a short history of the 43rd Wessex Division, 24 June 1944-8 May 1945. The Fighting Wessex Wyverns: From Normandy to Bremerhaven with the 43rd Wessex Division by Delaforce. The 43rd Wessex Division at War, 1944-1945 H. Essame.As well as many of the other regimental books that are out there.

Andy

 

Hang my head in shame, a great book to read especially if you are interested in Hill 112 and Churchills, is 'Tank Tracks: 9th Battalion Royal Tank Regiment at War, 1940-45
Peter Beale'.

This can be read here

http://www.royaltankregiment.com/9th_RTR/TT/CONTENTS.HTM

 

The GErman account Firestorm of the last war year covering the W-SS 9th and 10th Pz's would be useful endeavor for the German side of the conflict on the hump 112. Here is another work just released by German armro historian Wolfgang Schneider, over 500 photos, and many maps. the title is a bit bizarre but covering the infacny of the heavy W-SS panzer Tiger unit found at hill 112 Schwere Pz abt. 102 found it's creation through the Das Reich Tiger kompanie. Good to see the thread still alive .....

 

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/hill_112.htm

Anyone know anything about this reprint? Most of the jjf books have been pretty good, albiet a bit pricey... this one worthwhile?

With the amounts and types of german armor involved, some of the old hats around here can imagine my interest in this one. Looking towards the first major book purchase in over a year, this one immediately crossed my mind.

'course, $35 dosen't seem like too much...

 

That's the book, alright - I had no idea that JJF had done a reprint. The book is certainly worthy of one. If I didn't have a copy of the original edition, I'd buy it....

 

Excellent- as soon as Xmas bills on the credit card are paid off, I know at least one purchase that will follow!

Does look to be a pretty nice reprinting as well- and from JJF, $35 for a book like that is a steal!

 

try amazon.com or another book distributor as you may find it cheaper. though I have dealt with JJF since their inception they are quite high in price for all items

 

Very true, Erich- tho they are two of my all-time favorites, the two Tigers in Combat volumes cost me a pretty penny.

It'll be a month or so at least till the next "library update", so we'll see what I wind up with.

And I've got plenty of reviewing to do, so I'm in no rush.

Apologies for the hijack on this thread!!

To get it back on track... I've seen the website Erich linked before, but I've yet to do any real in-depth reading on this battle.
Reading the description of the battle, on question does immediately come to mind...

Considering that, from the sounds of it, the terrain on Hill 112 and the surrounding area was not especially dense or rugged- how did the German armor- especially tanks as large as the Tigers- escape Allied air power?

It would seem to me that the armor comparison here- Churchill vs. Tiger- would be almost moot, as I'd think Allied air power would have kept the german tanks from being a huge factor.

I've no doubt from what you gents have said that this was a fierce battle of armor- and apparently one that lasted for days- but what took the allied air power out of the equation to allow for such a clash of armor?

 

I don't mean to be rude "bumping" this one back to the top, but having read a bit more about the battle for Hill 112, until I can afford to make a book purchase this one really has my curiousity aroused, and I'm sure some of the experts here can shed some light.

A mainly armor /infantry battle in July 44 in Normandy that apparently went on for as much as 20 days-

And yet I haven't read about Allied air power being a major presence...

Wouldn't the Tigers have been taken out left and right by the Typhoons and other allied aircraft?

 

I'm posting this as an opinion without any sources to quote, but wouldn't it have been the case that at this stage of the fighting, the opposing forces would have been too close together ?

TAF aircraft would have been as much of a danger to their own side and would also have been prey to Allied AA. This is one reason that the Typhoons etc came into their own during the 'breakout' phase of the Normandy fighting when German ground forces could be clearly identified.

 

Smoke and absolute crap visibility ............ and the close proximity of the combating forces as Martin explained

 

Excellent, that does make sense. This would be where I need some further research on Hill 112- I don't have a very good picture of the terrain and how close quarters the fighting was.

I'm so used to the scenarios where Allied air power in Normandy kept the german armor from being a significant mobile striking force- it suprised me a bit to read about this battle lasting as long as it did as a significant armored engagement.

Well, I'm quite sure of at least one of my upcoming "reading assignments"!

 

not sure if either is working but maybe.........

http://www.hill112.com

http://www.ss-panzer.de

enjoy I hope !

E

 

Erich
I love your picture of the Tiger passing a knocked out BT? As with some models of T-34 they both had the "2" round hatches in the turret. When hit, and when the crew bailed out the hatches would stand straight up.
I recall reading about how some Germans used to call this..."Mickey Mouse"
I'm just interested to see if you've heard of this as well?