Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Tracers

Discussion in 'Weapons & Technology in WWII' started by Eisenhower, Nov 3, 2003.

  1. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    0
    Martin, this might be one for you...
    Anybody out there have some facts about tracers? What made them...uh...er..."trace" etc. ? :confused:
     
  2. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,578
    Likes Received:
    1,487
    Location:
    London, England.
    'Tracer' bullets contained a small charge in the base of the projectile which was ignited by the main propellant charge on firing.

    This left a 'trace' in the air ( either smoke or, as other chemicals were developed, coloured fire ) thus enabling the firer to see the flight of the bullets.

    Some must have had considerable incendiary power as I have read accounts of infantry loading rifles with tracer to set fire to buildings by firing at curtains in windows.
     
  3. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    14,439
    Likes Received:
    617
    what type of rounds are you interested in ? Flak, infantry, armor air force ?

    a side light.......the Luftwaffe perfected a round used in the 2cm and 13mm rounds called Glimmspur which was the ordinary He round but with a defusing light Incendiary additive. Especially effective when used in the upward firing Schräge Musik
     
  4. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    0
    thank you very much...any facts on which weapons had which bullet/tracer ratio? :confused:
     
  5. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,578
    Likes Received:
    1,487
    Location:
    London, England.
    This varied considerably. On something such as a light infantry support weapon like the .303 Bren, it was 1 in 5.

    In aircraft, the individual gunner did have a 'say' in the matter. On the Lancaster bomber, for instance, tracer went all the way from 100% ( used on the Dams raid to scare the enemy flak gunners ) to none at all ( many gunners feeling that the light of the tracer would temporarily destroy their night-vision ).
     
  6. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    14,439
    Likes Received:
    617
    there is more info if you would like it.

    The German Lufwaffe also used the highly lethal HE M Geschoss round in the 30mm range. At least 12 different varianst with at least 4 Incendiary rounds. The typical M HE/I was used by the Sturmgruppen in 1944-45 against US heavy bombers with the high explosive effect only needed 4 rounds to knowck a bomber down. The I versions quickened the fire effect because once the HE/I hit the aluminum skin of the bomber, anywhere on the fuselage and engines a fire would be ignited.

    ~E~♠
     
  7. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the info, gents. Be sure to share any more info you have. :D
     
  8. Juha Tompuri

    Juha Tompuri Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
  9. Greenjacket

    Greenjacket Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2002
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Grandmother's brother-in-law was a medical orderly on a high-speed launch in the RAF's Air Sea Rescue Service, and he wrote his memoirs for me some time ago. At one point he describes loading the magazines for the old Lewis guns that were mounted on his launch.

    'I often used to give him [the armourer] a hand refilling the pans with cartridges - I cannot remember the sequence but it went something like five ordinary - two tracers - four armour piercing - two tracers - five ordinary and so on'.
     
  10. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    5,368
    Likes Received:
    336
    There was an incident at Arnhem (described in 'A Bridge Too Far' I think) where a medic went into a cellar that was being used as a field hospital, saw what he thought were candles, they were actually the burning remains of some tracer that hit him (I think thats what the story was anyhow).

    As for Tracer rounds, they ignite at something like 75 meters from the muzzle of the weapon and go out at anywhere from 500m to 100m away (depending on the weapon or round). On the ground they are used for indicating a target as well as for their incendury value, if a rifleman sees a target that no one else can see he might fire a single round of tracer that will 'point' the target out. When being fired from a static position the firer often can not actually see the round (what with his rifle being in the way and viewing the round from behind) but it is fairly obvious to people looking at it from an angle. When fired from aircraft obviously the position is not static and so the gunner will see the trace.

    As for the loading sequence, as has been said it really depends on who is doing it, what weapon he is using and why. A little out of date, I was watching some static GPMG's firing on a target, the tracers were incredable, I would hate to be on the recieving end, they were flying all over the place, imagine if it was something like an MG42.
     
  11. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    0
    *shiver* that would be kind of an uncomfortable position if you were shot by a tracer. I would love to see tracers in action on either a photo or in a video. Anybody have a website that has one of them in there? :cool:
     
  12. Tony Williams

    Tony Williams Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2002
    Messages:
    1,006
    Likes Received:
    23
    A few comments:

    Some of the early (WW1) tracers were tracer/incendiaries, in that the incendiary mixture started burning as soon as the bullet left the barrel so it acted as a tracer as well. These were still in use in WW2 (e.g. the British Mk IV incendiary used in the Battle of Britain). However, it was found that incendiaries were more effective if they only ignited on impact with the target, so this became standard (e.g. the British .303 Mk VI). Below are some extracts from 'Flying Guns: World War 2' by Emmanuel Gustin and myself:

    "The RAF fighters armed with eight .303" guns differed from the usual practice by loading each gun with only one type of ammunition. During the Battle of Britain in 1940, the reported use was three guns loaded with ball, two with AP, two with Mk IV incendiary tracer and one with Mk VI incendiary (the "De Wilde")."

    "RAF Bomber Command principally used .303" guns for defensive fire. In 1942 the approved ratios for loading the belts in four-gun turrets were 65% AP, 25% incendiary and 10% tracer (two-gun turrets had 20% tracer with the others reduced accordingly). Between 1942 and 1944 the approved sequence was 70% AP, 20% incendiary and 10% tracer. This was modified in May 1944 to increase the proportion of incendiary to 20-30%, and changed again just before the end of the war to 100% incendiary, on the grounds that the German fighters were too heavily armoured for rifle-calibre AP to have any effect, whereas incendiaries at least stood a chance of setting light to something."

    "The Luftwaffe saw considerable variations in belt loading, as follows:
    The 7.92 mm MG 17 used in fighters were loaded with 50% AP, 40% API and 10% HEI (a Beobachtungsgeschoss or observation round, which exploded on impact to show the pilot he was on target). For ground attack and for the MG 15 and MG 81 flexible guns, the sequence changed to 40% API, 40% tracer and 10% HEI. The 13 mm MG 131 was loaded with one or two HEI for every AP/T. The 15 mm MG 151 had two to four HEI/T for every AP/T. Official loadings for the 20 mm belts and magazines varied at different times and places. Three types of projectile were usually mixed in the belts; HEI (M-Geschoss), HE/T and AP/API or APHE. Ratios quoted include 1:1:1, 3:1:1, and 2:2:1 respectively."

    "The .50" Browning fighter belts in US service started the war loaded with 40% AP, 40% incendiary and 20% tracer. The tracer fell out of favour when it was realised that it was providing more help to the enemy."

    "There was a considerable debate (which continues to this day) about the desirability of tracer ammunition. It was generally felt to be useful in bomber defensive weapons as the sight of tracers curving towards them was observed to distract attacking fighter pilots. In fact, the USAAF even used a tracer round for bomber defence, the M21 "Headlight," which was specially developed to be as visible as possible from the front for exactly this reason. On the other hand, Air Marshal Harris disapproved of RAF gunners using tracers as he felt that this encouraged them to "hose" the target instead of using their sights. In night bombing, some crews were cautious about firing as tracers merely gave away their position; so were their opponents. The Luftwaffe used Leuchtspur during the day (L'spur) but Glimmspur (dim trace) at night. Upward-firing guns in Nachtjäger (night-fighters) usually used no tracer at all, although some pilots liked to include some Glimmspur."

    "There was also a debate about the use of tracers in fighter aircraft. Some argued that tracers were useful in correcting their aim, or even in firing to one side of enemy aircraft to persuade them to change course (which sounds suspiciously like a theoretical concept; if enemy aircraft were in range, most fighter pilots would sensibly be shooting straight at them). The counter-argument is that the sight of tracers flashing past them gave enemy aircraft instant warning of attack and enabled them to take prompt evasive action. It has been reported that USAAF fighter units in Europe which did not use tracers scored considerably more successes, and suffered fewer losses, than those which did, which would seem to settle the argument. On the other hand, tracers could help the pilot in ground attack or in judging any sideways drift."

    "One general problem with tracers was the impossibility of matching the trajectory of other ammunition types, because of two conflicting factors. First, projectile weight was usually lighter than standard, and reduced as the tracer element was burnt up anyway; also the gas generated by the tracer burn reduced the pressure differential between the front and back of the projectile and therefore reduced drag. Tracers were generally specified to match the aiming point of other ammunition at some specified distance and remain within set tolerances at other distances. Another problem in explosive cannon ammunition was that the tracer used up some of the shell volume and thus reduced the space available for HE."

    Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
    forum
     
  13. Greenjacket

    Greenjacket Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2002
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    1
    In addition, some gunners in RAF Bomber Command did not like to fire tracers as it could destroy their night vision - an important consideration given that a gunner's observation, watching for approaching nightfighters and warning the pilot, was often more vital than his firepower.
     
  14. Texas Fred

    Texas Fred Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2002
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    This discussion has been mostly about air to air use of tracer or lack thereof. This, however, might be of slight interest...

    In 1963,During MARINE Infantry Training Regiment(ITR was and probably still is the next training phase after Boot Camp), there was a night firing exercise, where the entire training company of ~200 men, each rifle, and each machine gun used at the range, were loaded FULLY with tracer rounds. Then we were instructed to, on command, fire an FPL ( Final Protective Line ), commencing together, firing until the training unit is "winchester", across an open field .

    The FPL is fired, in theory, when someone is attempting to break into your position, as in Banzai charge. "FIRE THE FPL!! COMMENCE FIRING!!" was one of the last orders MARINE Infantrymen received until the outcome of the charge is known, right after "Fix bayonets!!"

    In the FPL, several machine guns ( MARINE Companies have a Weapons Platoon, but for this exercise, the MGs were furnished by the Training Command )sweep the front of the company position from side to side, firing in measured bursts. Each rifleman discharges his weapon levelly to his front, swinging horizontally from side to side through about 7-15 degrees, with a measured and spaced firing sequence, with the idea in mind not to run dry.

    Now this is ~200 men on line firing for, say, ~one minute, with every round a tracer. The exercise is to show the individual training MARINE the way the FPL interlocks...

    This was very beautiful in one way, but only in the same way a tornado is beautiful...As I recall, the manditory Safety Officer had actually brought his Wife or girlfriend out to see it... It was impressive and foreboding when one saw how well interlocked the planned firing of an FPL was.

    It occurred to me that night to wonder if the Russians and Chinese had an "FPLski" or "Fongee Pong Lei!!" If my DI back at Parris Island had heard my thoughts, he would have said, "Pvt. Harwell, you #$%$#&*, there you go thinkin' again....Thats my #$%@&* job!!" ( slap -- punch -- kick-- ) :D :D
     
  15. Colin

    Colin Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Eisenhower. If you want some pictures of tracers being used, buy the book D-Day by Stephen Ambrose. In the pictures section, it shows a stunning photograph of tracers being used on the night before the invasion by guns on-board the destroyers. I'll also see if I can find a link that has pictures.
     
  16. Colin

    Colin Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0

Share This Page