US Army Units use of captured German Artilley in Europe

Perhaps DocCasualty will notice this thread and can comment. I noticed his posts over in the Bastone thread.

 

Thanks for the invite, JC. I really wish I had something worthwhile to post, but I'm afraid I don't. I did run across something the other day pertinent to this and the ammunition shortage thread written by the QMC. I'll have to see if I can find that again.

This is another question I wish I had known to ask my dad about when I had the chance. I just don't have any sense of how common this really was or how much of a contribution it truly played. Thanks for this thread though, as you've given me something else to stay up late at night researching!

 

No problem. I do appreciate it if you could.

 

I found the page I had seen the other day but as I looked back over this thread, you had posted this same info in more detail already. Anyway this is from POL Resupplying Patton

 

I did lift the following from FA Journal Mar. 1945 from an article entitled "With Mediums". Kind of interesting as a first hand experience of the 90th Div. Arty. http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1945/MAR_1945/MAR_1945_PAGES_171_176.pdf​

 

From FA JournalDec. 1944: "Chickens Go Home to Roost", pdf p. 27. http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1944/DEC_1944/DEC_1944_FULL_EDITION.pdf
Sorry I can't post the three pictures or the article, as the pdf format isn't allowing me to for some reason with this one.

 

Thanks for all that!!. I downloaded them to my library collection .

 

This speaks to a question I have been thinking about, sparked by this thread. I really wonder how well the US FA was able to use these captured artillery pieces, as related to accuracy of indirect fire?

I found a thread here and some independent info about the differing doctrines of artillery practice by the various combatant countries of WWII. The US used an elaborate set of tables, configured with multiple variables such as temperature, humidity, etc. which allowed them to quickly and easily calculate firing orders for their various batteries. This along with their grid map system and superior coordination of all FA units in an area was really what set American artillery apart from the others in quickly bringing down accurate, heavy fire to virtually any target.

The one article from The Field Artillery Journal "With Mediums" made some mention about putting together some basic firing tables for captured equipment, but it seems unlikely they could have put together this kind of exquisite info on the fly in the field, like had been generated at Ft. Sill. That's what makes me wonder how well these pieces fit into the overall plan, or if the role of captured pieces was more for direct or harrassment fire. Any thoughts?

 

That is a good question Doc . Never really thought of that.

 

Any Luck Doc??

 

>....Lately we have had some very sketchy experiences firing captured 155 Schneider ammunition in the M1 How. It shot quite satisfactorily for observed missions, but we don't put it closer than 500 yards to our own troops. We have not worked with it enough to build separate slides on it for our own GFTs (and we have no correction tables for figuring metro on it anyway), but we do get shootable results by using the Ch V Mk 107 slide at a VE of +47 ft/sec when shooting Green Bag Schneider and by using the Ch IV M107 slide at a VE of zero when using White Bag Schneider.
Quote:


Use of Captured Artillery
In their haste to put the Seigfried Line between themselves and us, the Jerries have left a lot of shootable artillery pieces behind. Therefore, don't be surprised if your Division Ordnance Officer proudly presents you with a battery of captured material. With that battery you will, if you are lucky, get one grimy tabular firing table and an unlimited supply of ammunition. The chief difficulty will be that no one knows whether the firing table applies to the weapon or whether the ammunition is the right type for the weapon or whether the firing table applies to the ammunition. You figure those simple things out for yourself. The best way to answer all questions is to load the most likely-looking projectile ahead of the biggest bag of powder at the maximum elevation, then tie on your longest lanyard, put everybody in their deepest fox holes, and pull. If she goes off, and hangs together, and the infantry doesn't report a short round, you have a new battery all your own. Seriously speaking, if you wish to shoot it accurately the only thing to do is to build up "experience tables" based on frequent registrations. After you have fired enough registrations, you will arrive at a usable firing table. As for the Jerry materiel, it is subject to the same weaknesses as ours. It must have its daily care of materiel and daily bore sight, otherwise it won't perform<

I dont know if I should be proud or feel wierd that I understood every word of that

Sorry to be a month late responding to the question. The answer is clear in the text at the top. The battery 'fire direction' crew was working out a rough firing table through test shots, then refining it with each registration mission or 'fire for effect' mission. In the first paragraph the writer indicates he was using a US firing table, the "slide" or "GFT" he refers to and marking 'corrected' indicators on it the same as he would do with US ammo after completing registration or meterological corrections. In the second pargraph a rougher method of making a firing table from scratch is described. Not as through as at Ft Sill, Ft Aberdeen, or the Jefferson Proving Ground with new ordinance, but it will do. I noted with amusement the remark about not aiming within 500 yards of friendly soldiers. Our peace time safety limit was 1000+ meters.

The Germans and Soviet artillery had the elaborate tables and calculations. The difference was in communications above the battery/battalion and in doctrine. Also the Germans had a real ammo shortage, rather than a percived shortage the US and British armys had in 1944. ie: German artillery officers complained about being rationed to three shots per gun per day. British officers complained about being "limited" to 60 shots per target. Perception vs reality.

The Germans had shortages across the board in 1944. For instance the maximum propellant charge could only be used on approval of a senior officer. The high charges erode the barrle rifling faster and excluding the highest reduces barrel wear between 30 & 40 %. From early 1942 replacement barrels were insuffcient for requirements.

Not certain on this but my take is the captured artillery was used in a reinforcing role. In US parlance 'reinforcing fires' or a 'reinforcing battalion' would be used to supplement the fires of the primary battalion/s assigned to the task. In other words they would be used to thicken the ammount of ammo falling on a target/area. The other possiblitiy would be for deeper or longer range fires such as counter battery, harrasment on suspected targets, or interdiction of possible enemy movement. Thats the sort of thing the tanks and tank destroy battalions shot when they were fit into the indirect fire plans.

 

I appreciate your thoughts and insight.

 

Are those really Allied troops? They look like Italians- look at his berretta SMG and that short carbine.

 

The captions mentions French Forces so IMO they are French. The rifle looks like a MAS 36 bolt action rifle and the soldiers look like they are wearing US issued leggings, webgear and entrenching tool. The SMG could be a captured weapon.

 

That photo was in a series of pics showing the liberation of France, so I do believe the caption is correct and they are French troops. I'm guessing there was a real hodge-podge of captured, borrowed and oddly acquired equipment amongst the liberated fighters at this point.

 

Thanks for the additional info carl.

 

Uh, yer welcome, but dont encourage me too much, I might post something really loooong about artillery.

 

My pleasure. I truly appreciate all of your real world artillery experience and insight.