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USA won World War Two and saved England ?

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by Richard, Jan 25, 2006.

  1. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    The following is not my view but I found it to be interesting reading.

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    Americans commonly claim that the USA won World War Two and saved England from Nazi rule. This is myth. The USA did not come to Europe’s help in World War Two. During the Second World War, Roosevelt’s response to Churchill’s request for help was to agree to give Britain fifty old and pretty useless destroyers to help with the war effort. In return, Churchill had to hand over a ring of valuable British bases.

    When Churchill asked for more help the USA demanded all the UK’s gold, as much money as the UK could borrow and insisted that all available public and private assets be sold. The Americans demanded entry to Britain’s export markets and Britain had to hand over details of numerous new British inventions (including the jet engine). These were goodwill gifts which the USA demanded not in return for helping Britain in the war against Hitler (they didn’t) but simply to agree to sell arms to Britain.

    Roosevelt and the USA did nothing to help Britain until Germany made the mistake of declaring war on the USA. America’s post war economic success was and is built upon the exploitation of Britain in the early war years. That is a fact which we should never forget. However Europe was saved when Hitler and Mussolini declared war on the USA on December 11th 1941. It was only then that America was forced into the European war. It was Russia led by Stalin, which helped Britain most (not the USA). The Russian army destroyed far more of the German army than the Americans did. Britain ended the Second World War ruined, both industrially and economically. As for America they came out on top.

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    After reading this article it left a bitter taste. We paid a high price for what could have been very little help; it's a tough one to think about? Should all of us in the UK thank Hitler for declaring war on the USA?
     
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  2. jpatterson

    jpatterson Member

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    Well Richard, if you know anything about U.S. History during the 1930's you know that we were in the grips of a severe depression. We were just beginning to crawl out of it when the war started and Isolationist sentiment was very high here. Most folks in the states were both more worried about putting bread on their tables and weary of hearing about more unrest and war in the "Old Country". Don't forget, most Americans then were of European origin, many with direct family ties.

    It is beleived by many that Roosevelt wanted to enter the war from the get go. But, being the saavy politician that he was, he realized that his countrymen were not prepared for war. And he wanted to remain in the presidency as long as he could. He liked his job.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of holes in that argument.

    Later
     
  3. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    Some time last year over here in the UK a programme was screened called the Warlords, this one episode which focused on Churchill and Roosevelt on the early war years. One clear thing came out of it America could not have given a damn, that was until Hitler declared war on America. I found it interesting viewing and it was something to think about, as for the article this was written by a Professor who has written many books.
     
  4. The_Historian

    The_Historian Pillboxologist

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    Richard,
    Here's my take on the war's aftermath for Europe...
    Rebuilding Europe
    European nations mostly rebuilt from scratch by sheer hard work; Marshall Aid was welcome-and useful-but it wasn't the be-all and end all.
    I used to have an essay concerning the pre-war rearmament programme, and how it finally killed off the Depression, but I don't know where it went to.
     
  5. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    Rebuilding Europe good article Gordon.

    I am not being anti American at all I just thought it was worth posting to get everyone’s input on it.
     
  6. Fortune

    Fortune Member

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    good article... your not anti american... totally worth posting, always interesting to see other peoples perspectives.....
     
  7. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    I am wondering is it worth a trip down to London and visit the public records office and do a bit of digging in to the paper work.
     
  8. The_Historian

    The_Historian Pillboxologist

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    Yes!! If you go onto the NA archives, you'll get a link to professional researchers. Contact one who specialises in the area you want to research, then find out what they charge. They will tell you what their hourly charge is, but that doesn't mean they'll spend 8 hours there and then bill you! You'll only pay for an hour of their time, and if they find anything they will ask if you want a copy first.
     
  9. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    Couple of segments from two articles

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    Through June and July the national mood was at its darkest. The shattered soldiers returning from Dunkirk, and those who saw them return, could see little hope, and the country anxiously awaited invasion, while witnessing the first serious air battles over the coast.
    The only solution would perhaps have been the instant intervention of America - but Roosevelt could not and would not help - he knew the American people, those who elected him, were strongly against intervention in European affairs.

    .................................................

    American aid to Britain was always based on self interest. Prior to 1941 aid was given to Britain and France so that German ambitions were limited to Europe. This also won the US time to rearm.
    In the summer of 1940 when Britain faced Germany alone, Roosevelt demanded assurances that if Britain sought peace the Royal Navy would be sent to Canada to avoid it falling into German hands and threatening American control of the Atlantic. Churchill refused, arguing, as Vichy France had argued to him weeks earlier, that the navy would be a crucial pawn in any peace negotiations.
    Yet American aid was only granted in return for the surrender of British bases in the western hemisphere, on the sale, at reduced prices, of British owned companies and investments in the US, Canada and Latin America, the virtual seizure of South Africa's gold production by American warships, restrictions on British exports and finally the removal of the UK's currency and trade controls which could have been used to rebuild its pre-war international trade zone.
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    If America wanted to stay out of the European war that was their choice, what I can make out of the political situation, it looks like a one sided issue in favour of the USA. They were forced to enter the war after Japan attacked them. And Hitler declaring war on America which bought them in to Europe. On the other side of the Coin, Hitler and the Nazis were disliked by Roosevelt, and may be America would have entered the European war, with out being forced in to it?

    [ 26. January 2006, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Richard42 ]
     
  10. canadian_man

    canadian_man recruit

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    Ok everyone is takin about England and USA always winning the war What about the Russians and the Canadians we lost a lot of people. Also why is it that americans always think they are the people who won. Did you guys storm Berlin. No! the Russians did. And also Canadians are described as English if some of you were wondering. WW1 we got called in by england. But in World War 2 we came in as a Inderpendant country. So the next time people say The americans won WW2 remember our countries fought as hard as you and we desirve to be reconized.
     
  11. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    I for one Don't believe England won the war outright, I am British but I have notice the Americans do enjoy telling everyone they won the war. I just like to remind our American friends the bulk of Hitler's troops served on the Eastern Front. No one Nation won the war in Europe out right, the Russians suffered the most war dead and put up one hell of a fight even in the dark days of 1941.

    I would like to thank all Allied nations that fought in WW2 for standing up to Germany which fell under the control of evil men and their war machine that went on the rampage through Europe.

    [ 27. January 2006, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Richard42 ]
     
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  12. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    you better do some reading friend as W-Ss truppen served on both the Western and Ost fronts. the creme was smashed in Normandie and later at the Ardenne before finishing up on the Ost front and shell of formations.

    Of course it cannot be denied that some excellent Heerand Luftwaffe ground truppen also served in Italy till wars end so .......
     
  13. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    I would actually go so far to say that the bulk of the so called 'hardcore elites' served against the western Allies after the D-Day landings.

    The role that D-Day played in weakening the Eastern Front and paving the way for Bagration should not be under estimated. The 'Fire Brigades' that had done so much to keep the German front stable were now fighting in the West.

    Normandy for example has a possibly the highest concentration of elite units on a proportional basis. Units such as 1st SS Panzer Div, 2nd SS Panzer Div, 12th SS HitlerJugend, Panzer Lehr and others provided a hardcore of units in proportional terms rarely seen on the Eastern Front. While there were many units of poor quality in the West, it would seem fair to state that the battle for Normandy certainly featured several of Germany's premier formations with perhaps only GD, Totenkopf and Nordland failing to make an appearance.

    Thus if there was to be a higher proportion of 'elites' in the West then it shows how hard a fight the Allies endured during June and July, bear in mind that British casulty rates among the infantry were as bad as the First World War. Add in the various FJ formations in Italy and the Eastern Front becomes rather deprived of German elites.
     
  14. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    Gentlemen we are straying off the main subject but never the less good points.
     
  15. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    I find that although there is a large proportion of Americans who are perhaps ignorant of the war, there is an awful lot who know exactly what went on. Perhaps some of the blame should lie with Hollywood but then if you watched British Movies from the 40's you would have thought Britain won the war single handed.

    What I find odd is the bizarre pleasure that some get from proving those who dont know wrong.

    In truth the war was won by a joint effort. Take out any of the Allies and things would have been a lot more difficult for those that remained.

    The Russians lost lots of troops. Not quite sure how that means their contribution was greater... to me that just means they had some serious tactical problems that they tried to resolve by throwing men at. Losses are not always a good indication of performance.

    The American contribution was very significant. Without their industrial might it is hard to see the Commonwealth managing the D-Day landings alone. Same that without Britain holding out it is difficult to imaging the US invading Europe...

    So to me the whole topic is somewhat futile for discussion. As it has also been discussed before and does little apart from lead to arguements. Those that reside on this forum dont tend to feel that any one nation won the war alone.

    Well not many of us! ;)
     
  16. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    Thanks for your comments Red Baron.

    Well after having another read of the article you could say its modern day nick picking, and as the author was not around at the time of WW2. The author can not take in the full impact of those events that took place. I think the view was more political than a military point, so making it some what one sided view. And thinking in today’s terms and the events around us now, could have slanted the author's point.

    Thanks everyone for your input.
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Some of the reasons why the people in the US were not so fond of getting into war in Europe were

    1. After the WW1 men losses but nobody thanked for taking part in the war

    2. The US invested also alot of money in Europe but not much was paid back ( maybe due to
     
  18. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    OK [​IMG]

    [ 01. February 2006, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Richard42 ]
     
  19. bigiceman

    bigiceman Member

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    I think that the defeat of the Nazi war machine was indeed a joint effort. There were outstanding contributions from all of the members of the Allied countries. The fighting men of every Allied force gave their all. You can not measure the contributions by the casualty lists any more than you can measure it by the victories in battles.

    One of the biggest contributions to the overall war effort in Europe came from the Polish. They were the ones who obtained a copy of the industrial version of the German incription device Enigma. They got it into the hands of the Allies. They may not have won huge battles, or contributed great quantities of war materials, but they did their part. All of the Allies played a part, and thank God they succeeded in ending the Third Reich's hold on Europe and the atrocities they perpetrated on mankind.

    I think that all of the people involved are justifiably proud of their contribution to the war effort. They all came together at a time of need and did the unpleasant things that needed to be done. Being human they also view their contribution in a perspective that is usually not in proportion with reality. I don't know if the removal of the contribution of any one nation from the Allied effort would have changed the course of history completely, but it would have changed.
     
  20. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Oops...

    While I was putting down my thoughts last night I think a worm/virus started jamming the computer. It started opening and closing the net and finally stopped after about a minute or so....Afterwards I could not get back here so I can see only now what damage has happened....

    Well, I did not get 30 postings more for that but I guess you cannot erase the postings, can you, Otto?

    A couple of weird things still happening after security check-up on my part. Otto can you check the Forums or maybe you have already?!
     

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