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Use of silencers during the war

Discussion in 'Small Arms and Edged Weapons' started by Bonzo, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. Bonzo

    Bonzo Member

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    I am having trouble finding any information regarding the use of silencers.

    The British are the only ones that I know used suppressed weapons e.g the De Lisle carbine, the welrod pistol, and the supressed sten variant.

    However the other nations elude me. I have found no information whatsoever about silencers.

    Naturally, these would be employed by covert op units and commandos.
    So does anyone know if maybe the Branderburgers or the rangers used supressed weaponry?
     
  2. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    You certainly don't hear much about them.

    I seem to recall an adaption for the M3 Grease gun that involved a supressor; but, I don't know if that was after the war or late war. I do know the Navy used a suppressed S&W Model 39 Semi Auto 9mm they dubbed the Hush Puppy (MK22 - The Metal Gear Wiki : your guide for everything Metal Gear) during Vietnam
     
  3. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    History of Military Use of Sound Suppressors (Silencers)

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    M-1903 Springfield rifle equipped with suppressor. Photo courtesy Jay J. Quilligan, MD of Quicksilver Manufacturing LLC
    Sound suppressors were first introduced to the United States in 1909 by Hiram Maxim, the son of the inventor of the first practical machine gun. He dramatically improved his design in 1910 and silencers became popular amongst back yard sport shooters. The first historical record of the use of silencers by the military was an expedition by Black Jack Pershing in his attempt to capture Poncho Villa. He reportedly brought two M-1903 Springfield rifles equipped with Maxim silencers. There is also evidence that some of these suppressed Springfield rifles were used in WW I, however the nature of the trench warfare did not give any significant advantage to the use of silencers.
    Silenced Weapons in World War II: The High Standard HDM

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    High Standard HDM. Photo courtesy Jay J. Quilligan, MD of Quicksilver Manufacturing LLC
    The most significant advances in the use of sound suppressed weapons were in World War II. Several notable weapon designs were developed and used by the allies in this conflict. One of the most famous and long lived was the High Standard HDM. The pistol was developed for the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) and was used by its operatives throughout WW II. It was based on the High Standard .22 caliber pistol, fitted with an integral sound suppressor, 7.75 inches long and one inch in diameter. The pistol had a ported barrel surrounded by wire mesh; in front of the barrel were a series of wire mesh baffles. The sound suppression levels were in excess of 20 decibels, which was quite good for that era.
    The pistol was such an effective weapon for covert operations that it was used extensively by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) after WW II and also by operators in Vietnam. It was reportedly carried by the teams in the aborted Iranian hostage rescue.
    The British Welrod Silenced Pistol

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    British Welrod. Photo courtesy Jay J. Quilligan, MD of Quicksilver Manufacturing LLC
    The next significant design came out of Great Britain. This was the Welrod silenced pistol, primarily used by the British, but also used by the American OSS. The Welrod was produced in both 9mm and .32 ACP. The magazine formed the pistol grip and held 5 rounds. The balance of the pistol was a tubular apparatus 1.25 inches in diameter and twelve inches long. The rear contained the bolt and firing apparatus. The mid-portion contained a ported barrel while the front of the tube contained baffles and wipes.
    The Welrod was noted for being extremely quiet, but had a limited effective range of 25 yards.
    Following the Welrod, in the U.S., U.K, and other countries, many pistol models were used for covert operations with silencers designed to match their mission profile.
    German Silencers in World War II

    The German army fielded suppressors for a 9mm Steyr pistol, the Luger P-08 and the Walther P-38. These were used by night patrols and listening posts mostly in the Eastern Front. The Germans also fielded a muzzle mounted suppressor for their Mauser 98 sniper rifles, which was quite effective at hiding the source of the shot without interfering with velocity or accuracy.
    Silenced Rifles, Carbines and Submachine Guns

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    DeLisle Carbine. Photo courtesy Jay J. Quilligan, MD of Quicksilver Manufacturing LLC
    For suppressed weapons with a longer range, the DeLisle Carbine in .45 ACP, or the Sten Mark IIS and VIS submachine gun were used. The DeLisle carbine was manufactured using an Enfield bolt action receiver fitted with a modified Thompson submachine gun barrel and a magazine well that would accept modified M-1911 .45 magazines with a capacity of seven rounds. The silencer used a series of baffles attached to rods to maintain their alignment.
    The bore of the silencer was eccentric towards the top of the silencer tube, similar to the Maxim design.
    The Sten Mark IIS and Mark VIS incorporated an integral suppressor, which basically extended the length of the already tubular Sten gun. The suppressors were outfitted with a leather cover because of rapid heat build up. Because of this tendency, they also were generally not fired in the full auto mode. Heat and vibration tended to cause bullet strikes against the baffles. The suppressed models were produced at the request of the British Special Operations Executive for use by their teams in occupied Europe. (See Sten Submachine Gun for other photos and information about the silenced Sten.)
    There are also some references to a suppressed M-3 Submachine Gun (grease gun) in .45 ACP being fielded, as well as references to a suppressed M-1 Carbine being tested in WW II. Information about these items is very limited in the available references.
    MILITARY SILENCERS / SOUND SUPPRESSORS
     
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  4. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Interesting in how early a silencer was invented

    " In 1908, Maxim developed a silencer that delayed the release of gases, but he did not market the weapon until making a few improvements. The Maxim Model 1909, released in the year of its name, became the first efficient silencer to be marketed, but the Maxim Model 1910 became the most widely distributed silencer in the United States by capitalizing on an off-center design that allowed it to be used with
    a weapon's original sights. Although the military value of silencers quickly became apparent to many observers, Maxim only had the goal of eliminating noise pollution. Many of the first buyers of silencers employed them for target shooting in basements and backyards so the sound of firing would not disturb others. Silencers also found a market in pest control. Many silencers are still sold for use in eliminating rats, not so much to surprise the rodents, but to avoid the public relations problems associated with shots fired in heavily occupied areas.

    Despite global marketing by Maxim, no nation's military force made widespread use of silencers until World War II. The Maxim Model 1912 was the first mass-marketed silencer designed specifically for military purposes. Created for use with the popular Springfield rifle, the report of the weapon was reduced, but the sonic boom of the bullet could not be diminished. The passage of the bullet sounded like someone tearing a sheet until the projectile passed a solid object, like a tree, which resulted in the emission of a large crack. The 1912 model was not sold to any government in great numbers, perhaps because of the notorious conservativeness of military planners in this era, but it did find a few buyers. The U.S. Army purchased a few of the weapons to be used by sharpshooters for the quiet, long-range killing of sentries so that surprise attacks could be mounted. The silencers were apparently used in Mexico in the campaign against Pancho Villa, but, because the Army failed to halt Villa, the effectiveness of the silencers is somewhat in doubt. In World War I, Maxim manufactured silencers in calibers ranging from .22 through those large enough for machine guns. An experimental model silenced a four-inch artillery piece. Snipers continued to be the major users of silencers, though, and these men used only rifles. The Germans experimented with a silencer-equipped Luger pistol, but the gun suffered mechanical failure as well as too high a noise rate. In the years after the war, public interest in silencers waned, and Maxim halted production in 1925.

    In the years between the World Wars, silencers failed to find a substantial market among any of the world's military forces. The U.S. military conducted a number of trials with silencers, but ultimately decided that the weapons were unfit for combat use. Despite the silenced discharge, the substantial noise created by the movement of gun parts enabled observers to easily locate the bulky weapons. While unsuitable for normal military usage, silencers appealed to intelligence agencies and these organizations continued to experiment with the weapons. The United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS), newly formed to help fight World War II, modified the Thompson submachine gun with a silencer built by the Chrysler Corporation. The gun proved too noisy to be suitable for a silencer as well as very susceptible to jamming under field conditions. The OSS preferred to equip its agents with a silenced version of the M3 submachine gun in addition to a .30 caliber M1 carbine. The Central Intelligence Agency, successor to the OSS, used a silenced High Standard HD military pistol. Francis Gary Powers, pilot of the U-2 reconnaissance plane shot down over the Soviet Union in 1960, carried the silenced HD when he was captured. Around the world, the Welrod became a weapon of first choice. One of the few silencers designed specifically for silent and secret operations, the British-built gun was produced in .32 ACP, 9mm, and .45 ACP calibers."

    Silencers
     
  5. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Sten Mark IIS with Silencer.


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    [​IMG]
    Sten Submachine Gun with silencer.

    Sten Mark IIS with Silencer.

    "The silencer for the Sten gun was issued in 1943 at the request of the Special Operations Executive, the British Special Forces. With the silencer the direction of fire could not be easily determined since both noise and flash were suppressed. This was a clear advantage for covert operations including assassinations. A Sten is belived to have been used to kill the Norwegian traitor, Ivar Grande, in 1944 and during Operation Ratweek, when the SOE targeted collaborators in 1943."

    STEN SUBMACHINE GUN
     
  6. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Thais was mentioned on another forum,

    "I have found mention of the following weapons having add on silencers (albeit often rare examples or only prototypes), list below,

    P-08 (add on silencer);pictures prove that it existed
    Walther PP and PPK (add on silencer) pictures prove that it existed
    P-38 were built after the war
    Revolver 612(r) [Nagant 1885]: (add on silencer) prototype only, research carried out by the "SS-Waffenakademie"
    G43: all G43 produced from mid-1944 onwards were fitted to use a suppressor, very rare.
    K98K: rebuilt Soviet S-40 silencer


    The following had fitted silencers
    Steyr M12/M16 machine pistol used by the Brandenburgers (heavily cutdown version of the M12 and reduced capacity magazine)
    Mp-40[​IMG]rototype only
    Kommando-Karabiner: special rifle with the silencer of the Mp 751(e)(the Sten MKIIS 1000ydstare), only four Karabiner built, but did see service.

    The Germans didn't really go in for clandestine ops to the same level as teh British (including the various Resistance Movements in the occupied countries). Likewise, assasinations inside Germanys reach was really the job of the SS or Gestapo, who didn't really go in for the subtleties of the silenced weapon.

    All of their attempts to silence weapons appear to be reengineering of British (mainly) weapons and at least one from Russia."
     
  7. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    Strange. I have the impression that the NKVD used the suppressed Mossin-Nagant because it has a sealed cylinder, an unusual revolver design that permitted the use of silencers.
     
  8. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

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    don,t forget the webley and scott magazine fed pistol
     
  9. razin

    razin Member

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    A silenced weapon from Down under. A 9mm Owen SMG converted to silenced mode -also from pistol grip removed.

    View attachment 5347
     

    Attached Files:

  10. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

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    it looks really crudely made and it is a very odd design
     
  11. Bonzo

    Bonzo Member

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    C:\Users\Bernardo\Pictures\silencers03buk0.jpg

    Some more info on the De lisle Carbine if anyones interested :D
     
  12. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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  13. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

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    hey falkenberg was the webley and scott silenced pistol just a silenced walther ppk
     
  14. Mibo

    Mibo Member

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    I have to ask, does anyone have any record of Soviets using, or even planning a silencer for the Mosin-Nagant 1891/30-rifle?

    I just read a book, although complete fiction, where the main character is planning the assasination of Mannerheim, and he plans on using a Mosin-Nagant with a silencer.

    So did they have silencers for the rifle in the 40's, or is it a load of bulldroppings?
     
  15. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

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    the best way for the russians to surpress anything was to wait for an explosion
     
  16. Halldin

    Halldin Member

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    In Call of Duty, all weapons have silencers, so that must be true. :rolleyes:

    On a more serious note; thanks for the info and pics, I was wondering about this myself a few days ago.
     
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  17. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    I suppose they didn't leave tanks lying about the battlefield unattended either..........lol
     
  18. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

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    not all weapons have silencers everyone knows that the only silenced weapons I know of are the welrod
    the sten
    and the webley and scott.
     
  19. sturmtiger

    sturmtiger Member

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    the british soe agents used the weapons a lot to make little sound
     
  20. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

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    which weapons are you talking about you are not specifying anything
     

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