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various discussions on Islam

Discussion in 'Non-World War 2 History' started by majorwoody10, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    a secular ham eating jew and and irish yankee who calls himself catholic but hasent been to mass in 4 years are different , they dont typically claim to be devout ..im saying ive never met a muslim that doesnt say he is a GOOD and DEVOUT muslim .and its quite true ricky ,backslideing in islam can be hazardous to ones health ..thats kinda my point though ..a religion that kills people for backsliding is not the same as the religion of the jew and catholic above ..the fact that some muslims are helpful in killing other muslims means what?..communist thugs helped us kill nazi thugs ..crow injuns helped us kill blackfeet injuns ..all of this means what exacttly ? thats right ,it means dick...
    muslims are a product of their enviornment and upbringing just as we all are ,my point is that they or we must change that enviornment if it is produceing people who are intent on killing us or converting us ..this to me seems a reasonable goal ..i know all muslims do not want to kill us ..perhaps if those who dont want to kill us could somehow make their feelings known ,that would be a great start .perhaps these peacful muslims made some type of video record of their numerous and weel attended marches ,ricky ..mabey some photos ,a camera phone picture ,something ?..i know that ordinary muslims can operate this equipment as there are hundreds of homemade muslim clips on utube ..none about anti terrorism sit ins or marches though ,i checked...
     
  2. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    Maybe you just need to socialise with a few more :wink:
    I can think of 3 or 4 just from guys who were in my class at High School.


    So because a minority of people abuse a system we should alter it?

    Think carefully before answering that...


    I admit that I would like there to be much more accountability from the Muslim side of things. some kind of system where you can ask - "what have you been teaching little Ahmed today?"
    What I would also like is to stop the whole charade of schools changing what is taught in case it contradicts what they have learnt from their religious leaders (this goes for all religions, even my own).

    One of the big problems there is with Islam (at least with the perception of Islam) is that so little is known. It is hard to debate the whys and wherefores of a religion whose Holy Book can only be read in an ancient language. Yes it has been translated, but translations are not held to be correct. Therefore any debate with a Muslim over the foundations of the faith & the Koran tend to run along these lines:

    "Doesn't it say 'xyz' in the Koran?"
    "Have you read it in the original language?"
    "Uh, no"
    "Only the original version is truth. Get back to me when you have read it."

    You have so many agitators banging on about how Islam is the religion of war & cruelty... and you also have people who say it is a religion of peace and enlightenment. And then you have people who say that it can be taken either way depending on how you read it, and even those who say that the Koran started off being about peace and ended up being about war, as the political position of the first believers altered.

    And this is the point. Everybody knows - or can find out relatively easily - what the beliefs of the various branches of Christianity are, or Buddhism, or Judaism, or Voodoo, or [insert religion], but hard information on Islam, written in English (or the language of your choice) is scarce.

    It is another problem stemming from the lack of a real figurehead or governing body.

    I have a rough understanding of the core idea of Islam from discussions with Mulsim friends - basically that it is a religion based upon fulfilling your duty to God. He made you, you owe him big time. Beyond that...
     
  3. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

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    I know alot muslims,they r not much diferent from us.I got few friends from Iran too (they play the same game as i do) i know them some time and they r great guys!


    Edit: I hate this new....ergonomic keyboard :angry:
     
  4. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    many religious texts were written in ancient languages including the bible ..many scholars western and eastern , have devoted their entire lives to translating these texts to english and every other language ,for that matter ..there might be slight variations in some translations but to pretend that even modern aribic can not be translated is nonsense ..what the koran and the bible say in english is really not debated today by any serious students , there are plenty of arab born apostates who can verifie what is written and taught today throughout the muslim world ..the life and teachings of muhammed are printed in black in white ,in english ,french japonese, swahilli and prolly in inuit and navaho ..dont let anyone blow smoke up your ass and tell you the koran is a cypher though it would be convenient for them if it was ..remember muhamed was a great proponent of lies ,deception and smoke screens to mollifie his enemys until it was time to strike ..conquered jews and christians were rallowed to live in dhiminutude because they provided great tax revenues but their lives were not unlike the jews in the warsaw ghetto and just as tenuous ..it true that nobody in the world reads or speaks ancient arabic not even the arabs , they do however read and studie the koran in modern arabic which is not martian and can be translated ...and unfortunately these words are not allowed to be abridged or edited in any way shape or form , the come DIRECTLY FROM GODS OWN MOUTH , this is the huge problem faced be moderate muslims and by all of us non muslims today ...its not that osama or the taliban are bad muslims..they are merely doing what they are clearly directed to do ....ricky , this is why it is so easy to recruit eropean or us born young muslims or even converts ...they tell them ..read this ,now this ,and this page , now read the whole book and do as god bids you ... this is also why there are no real muslim demonstrations of any size ,anywhere ,ever against terrorist jihad attacks on kaffirs ..its gods will and , it is written... it is clearly written , chapter and verse ...
     
  5. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    I think you've missed my point again.

    While the Koran is out there in other languages, Muslims do not recognise them. While I could go out and read an English language version, any debates based on that would be shot down. Yes, this has happened to me. Interestingly Napoleon encountered the same problem when attempting to get the locals 'on side' during his time as ruler of Egypt, which strongly suggests that this is not a new idea...

    I know about Muslim treatment of Jews & Christians in the past, and how they claimed that the Koran ordered it.
    I also know about Christian treatment of Jews and Muslims in the past, and how they claimed that the Bible ordered it. And I know that the Bible says exactly the opposite.

    Religions can be easily manipulated by a careful selection of what you read (as you point out) but that does not mean that the religion as a whole (nor the majority of its followers) are evil.
     
  6. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    ricky , do these muslims claim that arabic cannot be translated into english or that only the koran cannot be traslated into english ? can the koran be translated into farsi or packistani or indonesian or is it merely english which is impossible ..can native speakers of arabic read the koran or must one be able to read ancient arabic ? kat stevens and thousands of other westerners read the koran and then became converts to islam ,did these people first learn arabic or ancient arabic or were they all converted by by a falsehiood , it seems they have been accepted into the faith by other muslims ..can an arab that was born and raised a devout muslim in an arab muslim country and has studied the koran intensivly ,and who also speaks fluent english tell us what the koran says ?or does learning english somehow make him unable to read arabic ..can you see how this argument of theirs starts to unravel in the face of logic ?
     
  7. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    Neither. Just that if the Koran is translated into any other language then it is not the original Koran, that the meanings will be different, and that it is therefore not the true Koran.


    see above


    In order to read the true/real Koran, I presume one must know the language it is written in. But then I do not know how similar the old & new languages are.


    All one needs to do to become a Muslim is profess your faith. How you got to that point is between you and God.


    Yes he can, but my point was that if somebody who has not read the true/real Koran tried bringing up passages from their translated copy, he could/would just say 'sorry, that isn't from the true version'.


    No, not at all. It is perfectly logical. The idea is that translation will (and it does) subtley alter the meanings of the original.

    However, I did not say that I agreed with it - just that it was a fact. and a fact that helps to maintain the big cloud of ignorance around what Islam really stands for among non-Muslims.

    Christianity has got around this by the use of a large variety of translations, with Study Bibles and other useful books telling you what the original Greek or Hebrew words exactly meant.
     
  8. TISO

    TISO New Member

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    Woody, i have an impression that you are presenting Wahhabism (as in sta religion of US ally S. Arabia) as entire islam religion.

    Just to clarify: according to wahhabism as tought in S. Arabia all other forms of worship make you an infidel ( including mainstream Sunni and especcialy Shiia version of Islam). According to prominent wahhabi clerics (including some top Saudi officials) killing shiia and most mainstream sunnis is equal as to kill a christian or a jew. Especcialy Shiia are hated by whabbis and even some top officials made quite genocidal claims against their minority in the Saudi. Islamo-nazis would be a good term to describe Wahhabis ( i.e. 75% of Saudis). Which are one of smallest Islamic sects but are definitly most wealthy and powerfull (especcialy in the US). They are also the only sect that did some deliberate "improvements" to the Koran (especcialy in reference to other religions) especcialy to their translations that are liberaly send all over the world. Others ussualy go to great pains to accuratly translate Koran and refer to translations as explanations of Koran.

    Al qaida is still more or less mostly only Saudi i.e. wahhabi and "neo-islamist" (like egyptian muslim brotherhood) operation (list of known suicide bombers, and terrorists more or less prove that). Same goes for "Al qaida in Iraq" operation. Just as a side note Syria jailed around 1.000 Saudi jihadists trying to sneak into Iraq trough syria which is roughly 70% of jailed jihadists in thet country. Also Wahhabis (read Saudis) are quite heavily financing sunni extremists in Lebanon with US knowledge and support as a counterweight to Hezbollah i.e. US administration's paranoia against coherent Shiia coalition (backed by Iran).
     
  9. TISO

    TISO New Member

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    Now children, don't write too much while i'm gone. Tomorrow i'm off with reserves for a week of field excercise ( here called mobilisation excercise). So please don't make me read trough 27,23 pages of this topic when i return :D :grin:
     
  10. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

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    Hawe nice time there TISO i know u will :lol:


    Just notice about Israel.....did not Israel ocupyed the Lebanon ,and keep it like that for several decades?
     
  11. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    Spoilsport! :grin:

    have fun.
     
  12. GP

    GP New Member

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  13. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    i hope dr bari is able to win some support from the muslims of the uk ..so far , i dont know if there have been any terrorist plots that were uncovered by moderate muslims and turned over to police ..is anyone aware of any would be bombers being handed over by anti terror minded muslims ?
     
  14. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    No, but there was a plot to kidnap, torture and murder a Territorial Army soldier working for British Army Intelligence that was foiled thanks to informants.
     
  15. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    The problem there is the obvious point that extremists who are planning a terrorist operation are unlikely to pass information on to any 'moderates' who could potentially then blow the whistle on them. That is just common sense.
     
  16. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    yes ...ricky .... but often of late . terrorists seem to be of the amature grass roots variety and friends ,neighbors ,classmates ect might notice achmed acting out of sorts and giveing away his car and personal belongings and farming out his cat ,spending much time in prayer and meditation ...it would be nice if someone called in and said ..hey my nutball brother in law ali is going to blow up london bridge on sunday and i want you to stop him.!!! i live and work here ,my kids grew up here ,this is a better life by far than the one i left in bungholistan ..i intend to stay here forever and i wish to protect my nonmuslim british freinds and neighbors from harm and dismemberment ...muslims acting to protect nonmuslims ,thats what we need to see more of ..or some of ,even ...
     
  17. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    Any evidence for this? Generally the 'after' interviews with friends & neighbours tend to be of the 'he was a normal guy who did nothing abnormal' variety.

    1) See above

    2)
    3)
     
  18. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    yes, it seems muslim informants did foil a plan to kidnap and murder a few british muslim soldiers ..are there any cases to date of muslim informants foiling plans to kill non muslim soldiers or civillians ? surely there must be some ..
     
  19. smeghead phpbb3

    smeghead phpbb3 New Member

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    Yes...

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/07/ ... -plot.html

    ... took a whole three seconds to google.
    The information is there for those willing to see it :roll:

    And woody, what do you think about the Muslims serving in the US armed forces? How would you explain them being there...
     
  20. corpcasselbury

    corpcasselbury New Member

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    Well, Smeg, they decided one day to enlist in the armed forces. Their reasons probably varied from one to the other, like it is with everyone who enlists. They went down to the recruiting station, talked to the recruiters, and then signed on. They had their physicals and background checks, then took the oath of allegiance and went on to boot camp.

    Now then, Smeg, while it is true that some Muslims have acted to help foil terrorists, how many more would have acted to help the terrorists? Or simply remained silent, which amounts to the same thing? I believe that the numbers of the latter two would be much larger than the number of those who have actively helped foil the terrorists.
     

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