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Was Hawaii ever truly in danger?

Discussion in 'Naval Warfare in the Pacific' started by squidly the octopus, Feb 11, 2015.

  1. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Really? Depending on which site you go to the distance form PH to Midway is listed as being anywhere from a bit over 11,00 miles to somewhat less than 1,400 miles. Looking at a number of sites on the internet the B-24J had a range of over 2,000 miles and a ferry range of over 3,000. The D model is listed on one site as having a range of over 2,800 miles so that's likely a ferry range. Furthermore if the AF had or built airfields on Kaui they could cut a hundred miles or so off the range. See:
    http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=494
    This page list the max range of high altitude bombing missions as 1,600 miles:
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/47132/B-24
    This one specficially states that the combat radius of the J model was 2,100 miles
    http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwariiaircraft/p/b24liberator.htm
    And Wiki states at:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress
    That the B-17G had a combat range of 2,000 miles.
    The PBY also has a range of well over 2,000 miles.

    So your assumption looks rather questionable. You also continue to ignore the fact that surface forces could have considerable impact on Midway.
     
  2. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    how the heck do i delete a post???? anyone
     
  3. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    At the bottom of your post click the edit button. Replace the text in the post with a comment stating you deleted it.
    That should work, unless your post was quoted by another poster.
     
  4. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    What do you want removed and why?
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I have a list of people who need removed...
     
  6. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I'm not so sure about Midway to Oahu being a one-way trip for the B-24.

    The B-24A bomb range with 4,000 lbs of bombs, and the B-24D with 5,000 lbs of bombs, both fall very close to the round-trip distance from Oahu to Midway. The A & D models could likely do it, but only by carrying a 2,000 lb bomb load. Of course, you also could probably also eliminate some of the gun positions & gunners to squeeze a little extra mileage out of the bomber. Further, every plane and pilot is different, so a little testing would be necessary to find out which are the better cruise control planes and pilots.

    All in all, I would have to say that with a little experimentation, the B-24A or D could very likely bomb Midway and return safely.

    It would also help to build a bomber strip on Kauai or Niihau which would save an extra 150-200 miles on the trip.
     
  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Well according to:
    http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=2461
    only 38 A's were built and the D model was the first to see large scale production although it looks like it didn't start rolling off the assembly lines until early 42 so either a B24-A or B-17's. The latter were already in Hawaii. This site:
    http://www.aviation-history.com/consolidated/b24.html
    gives the combat range of a B-24 C as 2,100 miles with a 5,000 lb bomb load (although only 9 were built) and one of the x models as having a combat range of over 2,800 miles with a 2,500lb bomb load.

    As you say a bigger bomb load could likely be carried if they weren't carrying gunners and guns. Especially if the Japanese weren't flying a CAP this would make a lot of sense.

    That still leaves B1-7s and the most likely candidate there is the B-17 E and according to this fact sheet:
    http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=2452
    I would think it could reach Midway and return with at least some sort of bomb load.
    This page mentions 2,200 mile round trip as being the extreme combat range of the E Model
    http://www.pacificaviationmuseum.org/pearl-harbor-blog/boeing-b-17e-flying-fortress-swamp-ghost2
    But this page states it had a range of 2,000 miles with 4,000 lbs of bombs. Constructing an airfield on one of the more Westerly islands if one isn't there already would cut some miles off as well.

    And of course there is the PBY (PBY-5) which had a patrol range of over 3,000 miles. See:

    http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/b/PBY_Catalina.htm
     
  8. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    So Dracula give a battle plan on how the Japanese could take and hold Midway with out having it affect their primary objectives. Try looking at how many places Japan needed to take to support their operations. There was a very strict timetable on what needed to be taken when to achieve the main objective of the DEI Remember the Japanese convinced them selves that the US would simply quit after a brief struggle so why bother taking an island that offers no real advantage at the time. As far as fueling only four ships I believe had the capacity to go the whole distance from Japan to Hawaii and back, the destroyers had to be refueled each way to escort the ships, Even Hiryu and Soryu needed to be topped off. There is also the slight problems of needed bombs and torpedos. The inventory had been drasticly reduced from the attacked limiting Japans ability to fight ong term. Japan had not developed a means of supplying a ship at sea so that means Kwajalin was the closest base and it was not well equipped for that many ships. . Finally even though their pilot losses were not great, Japan had no means of quickly replacing losses and constant battle will quickly use up pilots, if nothing else from fatigue.
     
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    38 was what was ordered, however, only 9 were completed as B-24As. Their serials were 40-2369 through 40-2377.

    The first B-24C was delivered on December 20, 1941, and the first B-24D was delivered on January 23, 1942.

    Of course, there were several ex-RAF LIberator IIs(LB-30s) that were taken over by the USAAF and flown to assist Java in late-December thru early January, 1942. Which could easily be commandeered for use against Midway.
     
  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    More than "slight"...The Rabaul-based Betty bombers that attacked USS Lexington during her raid on Rabaul in late February '42 were only equipped with bombs...Because their torpedo allotment had not yet been delivered.

    This, as Dracula loves to say, Historical Fact does not bode well for a Japanese occupied Midway.

    Did Kwajalein even have a supply of aerial torpedoes to resupply the carriers with? It was a submarine base, so they would have submarine torpedoes, but how many aerial torpedoes would they have on hand...And would that be enought to restock 2, 4, or 6 Japanese carriers.
     
  11. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Dracula,
    Here is a serious question for you. What do you think the hypothetical Japanese air group at Midway would or should look like? I.e. how many of what type planes?
     

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