western front, late 44

specifically Heurtgen forest and the Ardennes offensive

I am a gamer primarily, but I am also more than a little detail obsessed


what I want to do is model my gaming "army" after a specific unit
whether that is a specific division or a kampfgruppe doesnt matter to me since this is 1-1 scale (ie each figure represents one man/tank)

what I want is a fairly generic force, nothing really rare, with a few minor exceptions, I will need to incorporate some things from my present collection and I dont want anything that isnt right

the only out of the ordinary stuff I have so far is a Flammpanzer III and a few soldiers with MP44s, other than that its a very ordinary force
three SDK222s and a couple 250/9s for my recon unit and several
PZIVs which will most likely have shurzen


my main question is simply, does any of these items stand out as an item that simply wasnt there?

any advice on future purchases?
I want to be able to do a reasonable force within a reasonble budget which is why I came here instead of just buying a stack of books, I will just get the books later

I want to do a Ardennes scenario at a local convention this november, so I am also doing a US force, probably based on the 761st tank battalion,
( http://www.761st.com/ an all black unit)

any ideas?
should I just shut up and play with whatever I want under the "I own the figs we play what I want" philosophy?

Dave

 

HI Dave, Welcome aboard! I am a wargamer carrying out a similar task to yours but have a decidedly ficticous Kampfgruppe underway in 20mm...

The only thing which purists could pick on for late 44 in the west is the Flammpanzer III, a more likely flammpanzer in the west at that time would be the Hetzer variant.

As for future purchases are you talikng vehicles, infantry or support???

What scale???

Lots of HMGs and mortars, plus some nebelwerfers...

Check out the gaming section for topics on the latest ww2 figure releases...

Piers

 

20mm
the one true scale !!

yeah, the only prob with the hetzer is that it didnt actually deploy till jan45 :-(

if nothing else my ad hoc kampfgruppe may be a grab bag of small units and replacement vehicles thrown together by some officer to stop a breakthru

ie a platoon of PZIVs fresh from long term repairs, some volksgrenadiers, a platoon of panzergrenadiers, a PZIII flamm from the repair yard, and a recon unit that just got off the train from italy

basically an excuse to use what I want, with almost any unit markings I want
Dave

[ 10. July 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: dave talley ]

 

Well thats what I do!!!

I have no unit markings anyway!

So what ya got in this ad hoc kampfgruppe???

 

so far

6 PZIV
1 PZIII (M/N model converted to flamm)
10+ trucks
3 pak 40 (w/towing vehicles)
1 251-16 (Flammtrack(
3 sd 222
3 250 (2 with the 20mm turrets, 1 radio)
and enough infantry figs for at least a company, plus an engineer platoon, possibly 2 companies

just want to add enough 251-1s to make one company into PzGren, the rest can be motorized and volksgren
might also do some AA guys, but definately will be grabbing a ton of HATs new stuff, I need mortars and MGs
Dave

 

Cool, I gotta invest in some more MKIVs and the 251/16 is a must!

For my Germans I have...

6 MkIV
9 MkIII
6 Tiger Is
3 JAgdpanthers
3 Hetzers
3 Panthers
3 Tiger IIs
3 StuGs IIIs
1 Brummbaer
3 MkIIs (for Early War)
9 250
9 251
3 Pumas
9 Trucks
4 PaK40s
1 PaK38
2 88mms
2 105mms
10 Assorted Half tracks for towing the Guns!

Infantry support is about 300 metal 20mm figures all painted, with HMGs, Mortars, Motorbikes and Combos, hospital set, Wehrmacht Camera crew and some Gestapo in a VW Beetle...And some air support! Want to add another 6 MKIVs and more troops! I am aiming to have enough stuff to field a German force at any period of the war.


I also have similar sized Russian and American forces, and have just started on my British force!

 

Soviet Forces...

12 T-34s
2 KV-1s
2 SU-152
3 BT-7s


And about 200 infantry plus support. I need to add more artillery as I have very little for the Ivans, but they do have 4 120mm Mortars!

 

United States Forces...


18 Shermans
5 Half-Tracks
2 Scout Cars
3 Chaffees
2 Tank Destroyers (M10)
3 Stuarts
3 M7 Priests

About 250 infantry plus support, again they lack artillery, I have anti-tank guns but no 105s! I am also short in HMGs but have lots of mortars!


All my stuff is metal figures and metal or plastic/resin tanks.

 

good news

Italeri has a M8 Greyhound coming out in 72 soon

and I am trying to find a decent set of M5 Stuarts for under 8 bucks a pop
Dave

 

Dave,

Have you checked out Brookhurst Hobbies? I think they carry the Britannia 20mm WW2 range, who do some nice Stuarts, but dunno what the $ price would be... All the wargame companies over here will ship direct to you...


Correction just found this site...

Combined Arms

They stock Britannia stuff... Like this one below...



But its a crazy $14.80! You dont wanna know the price in the UK! Will let ya know if I turn up anything else.

RED

 

yeah
15 bucks is way out of my price range

I do know of some for about 5 bucks but they are true HO scale, so 1/87, I may order one just to compare, if its acceptible I will order the other 9 I want
DT

 

Well, if you want another opinion, if it were me making 20mm stuff, I'd simply opt for making one scratch build of each vehicle then molding a bunch using a silicone mold and two part epoxy resin. If you are paying $15 each for what I see above, then spending $75 to $100 on materials that would make several hundred vehicles and figures would be a far better deal.
Oh, aside from that, flamethrowing vehicles are very rare with the Germans by 1944. Yes, there are a few around but on the whole they were rarely encountered.
For most units the most common vehicle was the Hetzer. Even in panzer units assault guns like the StuG III are almost as common as turreted tanks. I would also suggest a fair number of panzerschreck as these are often the only "anti-tank gun" available in many units.

[ 13. July 2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: T. A. Gardner ]

 

I was planning some STugs
and maybe some Hetzers, just gotta find the cash

http://www.frontlinewargaming.co.uk/
try a peek at these germans, nice resins for under 10 bucks the brittania stuff above is substandard and overpriced

there are lots out there that are either cheaper and the same "quality" or some of the same costs but much better quality

and almost all my squads will have fausts, I will have a schreck squad also
DT

 

Dave, as several others on this board are aware, in WW II miniatures I do either 1/285 or 1/35 (54mm). I have quite a collection of the later and, should you require them as they are part of the rules I and friends use, I have very detailed TO&Es for the major combatants. I currently have little interest in 20mm personally (too small for visual impact too big for large scale (battalion +) games).
Also, I have a rules set that works for 20mm / 1/76 / 1/35 at the company level. These are unique in emphsizing things like command control, morale, leadership etc. Maybe one of the people here I have sent photos of the 1/35th's can post some...I seem to perpetually run into problems myself doing so.

 

TA,

Will see if I can post one of your pics.

I would be interested in seeing your rules, I am yet to find a ruleset that works for me...

Will have some of my pics done next week!

 

Here are a few exerpts from PanzerKriegsAkademie :


THE HERO FACTOR
In every war in every battle there are individuals and units who for often inexplicable reasons perform far beyond any reasonable expectation or explanation. The same can be said for units that fail miserably. What this rule attempt to do is introduce some of this "flavor, chance, or whatever you will" into the simulation. Since there is no way to quantify this, this rule is at best a shot in the dark. It should be used with caution, at all times. Its abuse is obviously easy. Referees are encouraged, no demanded of, to penalize heavily an abuse of this rule.
In situations where a player has a leader or high initiative unit present the "hero factor" may be invoked in the following circumstances:

The unit faces imminent check for surrender.

The unit is given an "impossible or suicidal" mission such as charging a machine gun nest across open ground, or attacking a fortified position without adequate means to overcome it (ie no engineering assets or fire support).
A critical portion of the scenario mission will fail due to the unit having suffered an adverse morale check.

Of course, this list is not inclusive. It is intended only to give a guideline to situations in which this rule may be invoked. Referees can, and should, invoke it as necessary to allow the game to reflect the situation being simulated. This rule is not intended as a means of rescuing troops about to rout the field as a general rule. It is not a means of getting around orders or morale checks when it might be convenient to do so.
Note that in some cases units of average or low initiative might be allowed to use this rule without having the above leadership present. This should be allowed only in very extreme cases and even then considered twice before allowing it.

PROCEDURE:
The procedure is to allow the unit to take a morale check specifically for "the hero factor." All applicable morale modifiers at the time the check is taken are applied. Any modifiers the unit has used in the current phase (or turn) where they still apply are used. Most commonly this type of check should be used to replace another necessary morale check.
The player controlling the unit may then specify a modifier of 1 to 10 to apply to this check. The morale check is then diced for per the normal morale check rules. The special modifier IS NOT applied at this point. All others are. Should the unit pass, the special modifier is added to the amount passed by to determine the unit's morale state. If the unit fails to make the necessary roll then the special modifier is used as a detriment and the resulting morale state is given to the unit. In cases where a unit fails it will go to a worse moral state. The severity of the change in morale being dictated by the size of the modifier selected. In game terms, selection of a modifier of 1 to 4 will lower morale by one state if the check fails (ie: good becomes suppressed, shaken becomes broken). A modifier of 5 to 8 lowers morale by TWO states (good now becomes shaken etcetera). Modifiers of 9 or 10 lower morale similarly by three states and cause the loss of any general leader present. It is assumed he took grave risks in attempting to rally his troops, much to his own demise.
EXAMPLE:
An average initiative unit of morale 6 is ordered to charge an enemy machine gun across an open field. The unit has a general leader present who has a ?2 leadership modifier. The unit's present morale modifiers for the phase equal +3 and it in suffering a suppression morale state. This brings the modifiers to +3 (the unit is being forced to leave a relatively safe location (assume it is prone). Or ?2 for the leader, +3 in other modifiers, equaling +1, and +2 for being prone under fire brings the total to +3 as shown. The owning player chooses a relatively stiff modifier of 8. A morale check is taken and a 1?10 die is rolled. A 3 or less is required to pass (morale level is otherwise exceeded). If a 1,2, or 3 is rolled the unit's morale immediately becomes ?5 (8 less 3 in modifiers) or impetuous and it may charge the machine gun. If any other roll is made its morale becomes +11 (5 for modifiers plus 8 for the hero factor less 2 for the leader) and the unit becomes broken.
Units that become impetuous, break, or rout receive all the bonuses or detriments of their new morale state from a check of this type.

11.3 PERSONAL LEADERSHIP AND COMMANDS

As previously described, troops may be personally led by any general leader. This is accomplished by having the leader present with the unit (base contact to within 4 inches). When a leader is with a unit it may be moved within the limits of the leaders ability, initiative and own orders. When a leader is present with a unit he may also use his leadership modifier to assist that unit during morale checks. The procedure for this is listed in the preceding section on morale.
EXAMPLE
A unit with an initiative of 6 has a leader of initiative 9 present with it. During the time the leader remains with the unit (within 4 inches of the units stand(s)) the unit has an initiative of 9 for all purposes.

11.4 COMMANDS

This is a special case combining the functions of personal leadership with those of orders. A COMMAND as defined by these rules is a very short and specific order given by a leader to those units he is within direct contact. It requires the giver and receiver to use one level of initiative during the action phase. This action is of particular use to platoons of vehicles which though functioning as squads will rarely be within four inches of their leader.

13.0 THE TURN SEQUENCE
The turn sequence lists the order in which actions are to be performed by units. It is relatively straightforward and easy to follow. It MUST be adhered to.

TURN SEQUENCE

ADMINISTRATIVE SEGMENT
Sighting modifier rolls
Up date any paperwork

ACTION SEGMENT
All troops of both sides now move and may fire in the order of their initiative. Units and leaders also perform other operations such as radio contact, rallying, issuing commands and orders and, other game related tasks.

That is the ENTIRE turn sequence. I doubt it could be made much simpler. The idea of initiative is central to the game. One thing it lends itself to is the concept of momentum in the sense of the Boyd cycle.

 

T A

Sorry to bother you again

Could you e-mail your set of rules, please!(if possible)

Thanks a lot!

Currently my KG contains:

17 Pz IV
17 Pz V (Panther)
4 Pz VI (Tiger)
1 Sdkfz 251/3
2 Sdkfz 251/2
2 Sdkfz 251/8
2 Sdkfz 251/9
2 Sdkfz 251/16
2 Sdkfz 251/1 sMg
3 Sdkfz 251/10
10 Sdkfz 251/1
3 Sdkfz 11
3 PaK 40

As you can see, I'm ready for anything

Best Regards
Clausewitz