What if Panther II becomes standard tank?

***Sorry to post this here but the "What If?" section appears to be still knackered.***

I think we've all been around the usual Tiger vs whatever, but I was reading a Panther book last night and the new PzKw 5 Ausf F tank seemed to hold a lot of potential, the prototype turret (where the most radical change was made) was smaller, produced in 1/3 of the time to a Ausf G turret, yet it had thicker armour and held more rounds.

(From Achtungpanzer.com)


Also, as a whole, the new tank made use of tiger components already in production, but was a lot less complicated and material hungry than the Tiger 2. (I guess that was why it was cancelled...too simple ). The tank was designed to also have similar performance to the Ausf G.

So here's my question. If the Tiger II were cancelled and the Panther 2, with its 88 pak gun became the mass-produced tank of 1944, would it have made any difference?

[ 22. January 2004, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

 

In replacing the TigerII I do not think it would have had an impact on the outcome of the war. Had it replaced the Tiger I, it may have allowed Germany to field more heavy tanks but due to ineffective command and control, the outcome of the war would have been the same. My two cents

 

The Panther II was similar to the Panther I in all aspects, except for armour, which was to be somewhat thicker (which made the tank much heavier). It was to have the same armament as the normal Panthers.

The picture you are showing is the Panther-Schmalturm.
I don't think the Schmalturm would have made much of a difference. It had poorer ergonomics, and its ammunition storage was cut in half of that of the normal Panther turret.

 

This also looks like the turret used by the PSW 234/2 Pumas

[ 22. January 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]

 

First of all, welcome aboard, Christian! Hope you like it in here!

About Panther II... Almost anything could make a difference in 1944... specially in the second half.

 

Hello Christian, Are you the same Christian of Axis Forums/Feldgrau fame? Yeah a guff on my part I think about the magazine capacity, heres the whole spiel about the turret:

From "Profile AFV weapons: Panzerkampfwagen V Panther by Chris Ellis and Peter Chmaberlain"

Sorry I think I also misquoted the build time in my first post but it has been corrected above !

 

I am me, yes

What is your username there?

 

I would point out that the Panther II was to be armed with the same 75L70 as the A - G models were. The 88L71 (as I pointed out in another thread) would not fit in the turret where it could be readily or realistically used. The 88's shells were so long it could only be loaded at high angles of elevation (great shades of T-62!). Recoil was calculated as so severe that it would cause stress problems. The size of the recoil cylinders limited depression to just a couple of degrees. Ammunition storage was severly limited too.
While the Panther II would have been a significant improvement over the G model it wouldn't have suddenly been a Tiger II equivalent. Side and rear armor were still thin leaving the tank with vunerable flanks. Automotive performance was still unchanged. The use of resiliant road wheels (same ones as on the Tiger II) would have reduced track life further than the 500 to 750 mile life of earlier models.

 

Quote:
"The 88L71 (as I pointed out in another thread) would not fit in the turret where it could be readily or realistically used"

But.........

"On 8 March 1945, Oberst Crohn (Wa Pruef 6) requested that Krupp complete a design for the armor shell of a Panther Ausf.F turret mounting an 8.8 cm Kw.K.43 by 12 March 1945.
On 14 March 1945, further development of the Panther was discussed with the Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen. A new situation had been presented as a result of the excellent work by the Waffenamt in designing an 8.8 cm Kw.K. L/71 (Tiger II gun) in a Panther. 15 main gun rounds were accessible in the turret along with about 50-54 rounds stored in the hull. With a rangefinder protected by armor and a gunsight with a stabilized view, it was about the same as the Panther-Schmalturm. Weight was about one metric ton heavier than the current Panther. Wa Pruef 6 was to be especially thanked for development of this Panther. If production of the "8.8 cm Panther" was successfully started, Wa Pruef 6 was to make preparations for the future to CONVERT all available Panthers that underwent major overhaul to mounting an 8.8 cm turret. The Versuchs-Panther in soft steel was to be completed by early June. If the necessary support was provided, series production was to start in the last quarter of 1945.
On 14 March 1945, the Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen requested that Wa Pruef 6 provide a Versuchs-Panther with an 8.8 cm Kw.K. L/71 completed in accordance with the wooden model from Daimler-Benz that had been displayed on 12 Decem-ber 1944. The Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen agreed to a normal Panther hull with a modified superstructure and turret in soft steel. Wa Pruef 6 was requested to expedite completion and to ensure the timely display of the Versuchs-Panther.
On 23 March 1945, Speer relayed the request that Hitler wanted a Panther with an 8.8 cm Kw.K. be displayed about mid-April 1945 along with other weapons. When interrogated after the war, represen-tatives from Daimler-Benz stated that plans had been made to eventually mount the 8,8 cm Kw.K.43 L/71 with a stabilized gunsight in the Schmalturm, but this project was not far advanced. In August 1945, a wooden mock-up was still located at the Daimler-Benz assembly plant"

 

Too little, too late, as usual for Nazi Germany.

Having said that, I think the Panther II would've been useful, not as a substitute heavy tank a la Tiger, but as a supplement/replacement for the Panther I.

Yours,
Paul

 

I guess the point of this "What if" was really to ask, ok, if it had replaced the Tiger II and all other main Panzers and therefore (would?) have been available in greater numbers SOONER.

Hitler had asked for a Panther replacement in Jan 1943 (thus the Panther II concept) also, designs in earnest for the Tiger II started around the same time (even though preliminary studies commenced in Late 1941). On this premise, as Numbers for Tiger IIs reached 377 for the whole of 1944, if the tiger II never got off the ground and this production was switched to the Panther II at the exclusion of almost all other Panzers, well...that's the gist of my "What if?"

I reckon on German Production making quite a formidable force of Panzers to at least SLOW the allies down.

p.s. Christian, my handle on Axishistory is "Mak Los Mien Schnitzel"

[ 23. January 2004, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

 

**Cough**, WHAT?

Or should that read: "Almost nothing could make a difference in 1944... specially in the second half." This makes sense.

Otherwise I'd read your post suggesting that Germany "lost" WW II as late as in 2nd half of 1944 - by a small margin.

That would be new to me.

Cheers,

 

If the Panther II had made any difference and Germany began to win the war because of it, Hitler & Co. would have done something to screw themselves anyway and they'd be back to square 1.. probably cancel the Panther I or something. In the right hands the Panther II may have won the war depending on its introduction.. but so could have the Mk IV.

 

Well I now have positive proof that Japan finally got the contract to build Panther 2s



I think the company was Hasegawa , and it was 1:82 scale!

Still, funny looking beast eh?

 

Did the Panther F even see Action? It is very up in the air, maybe around Berlin....I think it would have been a totally different story if the Panther F was put into the western front when the first prototype was built, I mean the chasis was proven, the gun was proven, steel wheels proven, heck it should have been put on the front lines asap. The Tiger II was to big and to heavy.

 

The Germans were in no position to change their fortunes with a slightly improved weapon.

Basically the Panther F was of no strategic consequence. All of its alleged improvements addressed none of the Panther tank's true failings. The panzers did not need more firepower or protection. What they needed was simplicty, fuel efficiency and dependability. The Panther F was still overweight, too complex, difficult to build, hard to maintain and had no improved fuel economy. It was as vulnerable as its predecessor to flanking fires which was in any event the way how the Panthers and Tigers were knocked out.

The concept of replacing major panzer types with the Panzer F is dubious to me. That was what the Panther was designed for, to replace the obsolescent Mark IV. It failed in the task because production volume was inadquate. The most numerous AFV in German service at the time was the StuG III/IV and Mark IV. It was a herculean task to replace the existing fleet and unsurprisingly Germany did not succeed. As for replacing Tiger II, there were so few Tiger IIs that had they disappeared the war would have went on exactly the same way it did. By no means would replacing the Tiger be a signicant event.

By late '44, the Anglo-American and Russian hosts were superior to the Wehrmacht in all the criteria that matters. The superiority of numbers, equipment, fuel reserves, munitions, and industrial capacity, Germany could not hope to cope with the allies. Germany's armament industry was in shambles. It was a matter of time before what was left of the assembly line and raw materiel were overran. Nothing at this stage would make a difference.

 

Overall result = Broken Panther IIs blocking the lanes of Normandy and burning in the fields of the east, instead of just 'normal' Panthers.



Cheers,
Adam.

 

note of moderation: thread moved to "what if" section

 

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