What if the German armies in Stalingrad attempted to break out?

I believe that's a summer map of the original advance isn't it?
July?

 

You are totally correct Balderdasher....picked the wrong one from the site with maps...I´ll correct that one later...

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Corrected the map!

 

What is my 2cents worth well here goes

Soviets did not under estimate the size of the "Stalingrad Pocket" they knew who, what and how many that were trapped in Stalingrad.

In the event of encirclement it is known that the best time to breakout of an encirclement is just after the encirclement is created as the Soviet forces would naturally be bouyant and have their guard down, and it is this time to strike out and effect a rolling offensive.

One thing that has not raised its ugly head and that Paulus lied to Manstein on the level of mobility, this was to downplay the 6th Army and part of 4th Panzer Army's effectiveness to effect a breakout. But had Paulus had gotten an order to evacuate after a lucid moment by Hitler, who orders the withdrawal of Stalingrad then the 6th Army and 4th Panzer Army (Part) would have succeeded in breaking out.

Just my 2cents worth.

 

I thought the Soviets themselves mentioned they believed there were some 90,000 soldiers in Stalingrad. If you have a source saying something different, I´d appreciate seeing it Roddoss.

 

Everything I've read,says Paulus horded gasoline exclusively for the "word" to breakout that never came. I'd like to hear more about this "lieing" to Manstein.

 

Should have gathered the entire trapped army and literately drop all of there items and book it like some crazy running marathon, 'cept theres bombs and bullets chasing you D:

 

Kai;
according to Keegan you are right,
p84

"...what they believed to be 90,000 enemy troops in an encirclement 200 miles in circumference.
...
"It was at least two and a half times that number.
...
Fifty-Seventh Panzer Corps was across the Aksai and reached the River Mishov, within 30 miles of the seige front (19 Dec)."

 

I guess you're just kidding around. 3 miles,not to mention 30, would be all but impossible across open steppe[no cover] in freezing temps on foot.


There were 250,000 originally there, the 90,000 were what were left. Not sure if that included the "non-walking" wounded,which were in the thousands.

 

I thought the original number was a little higher? Not to mention allies to Germany....

The 90,000 prisoners looks more like 100,000 to 110,000?

here is a good site
http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/

 

I wonder how far a well-planned out German break-out, given that they couldn't bring artillery support along for long, could actually get?

The Stalingrad documentary on tape here from History Channel indicates the German spearhead was willing to try harder despite their own supply wall if they saw an effort from the pocket. So maybe 30 mi isn't the true measurement, but you'd think the Soviets would try to reinforce the narrows if they could.

On the otherhand, as one Soviet officer was translated saying, the Germans were costing the Soviets more in lives defending the ruins rather than making a break for it, and I believe even Manstein agreed that it did hold up Zhukov enough for him to regroup...however, Manstein also said that once he was, the order for the break-out should have been given. If the narrows were under attack from 2 sides at once, Manstein would've faced less resistance.

What was the German mind at the time too?
If you say only 25% of you will make it to German lines, is that still better than the 10% chance of ever surviving Soviet slave labour camps to return home someday?

Even if a good plan could be sketched out, would German discipline hold on the pocket side? or would it collapse into, forgive the term, Lemming Run?

What would we support if we were a German in the pocket at the time?

 

Of course I was kidding, thats suicide.

 

I was just reading Manstein's "Lost Victories", and i came across some interesting information about the subject of this thread.
"The moment Sixth Army launched its attack towards the south-west things would become easier for Fourth Panzer Army, whose further progress over the Mishkova was by no means a certainty on 19th December, would doubtless be able to accomplish the outstanding 12 miles once the pressure were relieved by the action of Sixth Army"
So Manstein thought it was still possible for Sixth Army to link up with Forth Panzer Army and establish enough contact to provide Sixth Army with the fuel, ammunition and food it needed for continuing its breakthrough.

 

Yes, but the Sixth army never had any plans for making the attack as Paulus would not do anything against Hitler´s will...

besides if the sixth army had fuel for some 50-60 kilometers and they would meet half-way and would start refuelling that would be an ideal target for the Red Army to attack. A huge number of tanks and other vehicles refuelling in the middle of nowhere and probably without decent cover...that would be a blood bath with lots of german losses, I´d think.

 

If Paulus was really obedient, he would have killed himself. The reason why Paulus refused to break out was because that he was a coward. He knew Sixth Army was unfit for a break out, but so did Manstein. That was why Manstein risked everything trying to break in and give the Sixth Army a chance to survive. But Paulus was too much of a coward to take that chance and break out, even after Mainstein tried to break in.
If Sixth Army did link up with Fourth Panzer Army, do you think they will be refueling in middle of nowhere (unprotected)? It would take at least 1-2 days for the Russians to realize what happened and take action.

 

If the Germans would try to get out of the pocket the Soviets would know it immediately because the surrounding ring would be broken. That would release these troops to hunt the escaping Germans within hours because I do believe the Soviets were expecting that kind of reaction, wouldn´t you?

The Germans would be forced to refuel in the middle of nowhere if the idea was to attack from both sides and meet in the middle. I mean the 6th Army only had fuel to make a run for 50-60 kilometers and without refueling immediately when meeting the 4th Panzer they could not get anywhere. The distance to safety was some 100 kilometes altogether at the time I think. Hitler himself was told of the fuel situation in early-mid December and he said they would not get from Stalingrad more than half-way to "freedom". So another reason why Hitler would not let them escape from Stalingrad because it was doomed in Hitler´s eyes even to try.

"It would take 1-2 days for the Russians to realize what happened??" I do think you are quite underestimating the enemy here....

 

Sorry, Crossy, but I don't think it's right to judge a man on his back, and when you don't know all what was going through his soul. You have judged him without as you Americans use to say "having had his day in court". That's not fair.

 

I agree, calling Paulus a coward seems a little short sighted?

And why would it take the Russian 1-2 days to figure out that Paulus had broken the encirclement, were they that imcompetent?

 

I was unable to control my rage after finding out that the fate of an entire army was sealed because of the cowardice of one man.
I am sure Paulus had his reasons for his conduct, we all do.
I am only human.

 

Bombing the crap out of Stalingrad was not a smart thing to do, any how Paulus's was forced to strip the last Germans in the rear to take Stalingrad leaving the Romanians to defend the rear which for them proved to much.

Text book operation by the Russians who now learn the lesson of Kharkov in 42, the big German encirclements now fizzed out as the Russian withdrew in to Stalingrad and kept the Germans right on the doorstep which prevented air support in fear of bombing your own side.

Paulus followed Hitlers orders to the letter and did his best, but any chance of a breakout was all over by Dec 42. I will give Paulus credit for not blowing his brains out which as we all know pi**ed off Hitler.

 

Sez you