What if the Me-262 was created earlier?

Another interesting thread marred by personal insult! Where is that Penguin when you need it?

 

In the kitchen with some hot blonde, drinking pilchard schnapps, and you don't want to know what the hot blonde is doing. It is so unatural.

 

Well said. Even if this is a what if on the Me-262, I have to concede that you have a point. War always ramps up the tecnological curve because of the war machine's need to be bigger, better, faster, stronger than the other side.
The Sturmvogel fits into this precept and would be formidable problem for a few months at the very least. But the Russians and Allies, I believe, would've been eventually found a counter to the aircraft. End result, a longer timeline in the war but outcome still the same.

 

I still go back to the what-if of the 262A-1a for the whole LW Nachtjagd. there was no counter to it by the RAF in the war, in fact many 4-engine RAF bomber crews plus Mossie crewmen never knew what hit them

 

The counter is better electronic countermeasures. If the stream is heavily masked by chaff, jamming, and other passive/active countermeasures then the 262's performance is signifigantly degraded. In fact, I would propose that a fast prop aircraft like the He 219 or Ju 88G would be better against a main effort where their much longer loiter time, lower use of fuel, and better crew visibility would be a huge advantage in the face of near overwhelming jamming.
Now, against single Mosquitos operating on their own I would agree, the 262 would be very effective.

 

I go back to 42 with radar in the infant stages, and even in 45 the single seat 262 did not have radar so there was no prob except for range. no counter as well for the many searchlight ground batteries. of course we can debate whether or not window/chaff was a suitable deterent to throw off the LW night fighter force even in 45, the electronic gizmos like FuG 350 Naxos was not effected as it was used with tremendous success when the main portion Fug 220d was rendered obsolete but that is antoher story

 

If memory serve the first countermeasure device was the Mandrel Device which sent out a signal to confuse German Radar but the aircraft carrying it was easily detected and shot down. My god you gave the Me-262 some credit, i don't believe it, you think the Me-262 is capable of downing a Mossie.

 

I'm surprised that noone has brought this up: Suppose the Me 262 did come out earlier. Add to that the butterfly effect, if you will, and, just for the sake of argument, put the American P 80 into service a bit earlier as well. True, the Meteor never met the Me 262 in combat, but, given this new scenario, wouldn't it be fair to assume that there would have been some air-to-air combat had the three been out sooner? I wonder if the Me 262's heavier guns would have been a problem, especially in high speed turns, versus the P 80's .50's the way the Mig 15's were compared to the Sabre's...

 

Mandrel is not the first British jammer in service Moonshine was. It was a signal repeater that put out a signal that would make it look like several bombers on a radar screen where there was one. Mandrel was a simple noise jammer used primarily to spoof Freya EW radar systems. Its primary use was in screeing British bomber movements early in their flight prior to entering enemy territory. Typically, a number of aircraft with Mandrel formed a "screen" along the Channel or North Sea to cover bomber movement until they were almost over the continent.
Monica, a tail warning radar was the primary culprit for German ESM tracking. This was done using Flensburg and allowed a nightfighter to home on the signal from as much as 20 to 40 milies out. However, for the final approach radar was still necessary as multiple Monica signals in the bomber stream in close proximity usually made it hard to single out an individual bomber for a gunnery pass.

As for the 262, I never said it wouldn't have made a decent or even formidable bomber buster. Certainly its speed made it very well suited to catch the elusive Mosquito raiders in the German sky. As a nightfighter I would think it would have had severe limitations mostly centering around lack of space to carry sufficent fuel for loitering and room for electronics. Flying solely as a Wilde Sau would have been very limiting for its success rate as these missions were too dependent on luck and lighting conditions as well as their very high loss rate (primarily through crashes and other pilot errors rather than enemy action).

 

I just asked this question in the "Quiz Me!" forum...

 

Thanx for the info on the early countermeasures, it was an eye opener, but the second part of your post, i don't think having the Me-262 in 1942 as a night fighter equiped with radar and be guided to the main bomber streams at night by ground based radar would not see them flying around like "Wild Pigs". You give no credit to the Germans, the system they would come up with would be ground radar would detect the main night bomber streams and calculate their probable course and then scramble the Me-262 NachtJeagers and then guid them into the proximity of the heaviest concentation of the night bombers and then allow the onboard radar units they have to locate and destroy aircraft. *I mean if i can come up with that docterine in several minutes i think German Luftwaffe Control would come up with that docterine as well*.

 

In 1942 the Germans were still using the very rigidly controlled Himmellbrett system in of Oberst Kammehuber in the "Kammehuber Line." This system used a string of boxes each containing two Würtzburg Reise radars and their associated director system to control a single nightfighter orbiting the box. These radars then tracked the nightfighter and a bomber penetrating the box to achieve an interception. It was a low volume, rigid system that the British were bypassing by using the bomber stream and inundating the system. It also required that the nightfighter aircraft be airborne and orbiting for an extended period to function. The Me 262 doesn't have the fuel for this type of operation.
The whole system is very indicitave of typical German thinking. That is it was orderly, neat, and very rigid in its application. Hermann Hajo's Wilde Sau system was rejected for being the exact opposite just as a running fight that became Zahme Sau later was.
But, it was still an aircraft equipped with radar that remained the best and most effective solution to nightfighting in the air. Using aircraft without radar was definitely an inferior and second-best choice.
As another indication of effectiveness, look at Allied and everyone's post war, well into the 50's, nightfighter aircraft and which proved most effective: They were large planes equipped with powerful radar and two or three man crews carrying alot of fuel and powerful weapons that would ensure a kill even in the face of some uncertainty on the exact location of a target. Small one man and two man fighters where they existed as nightfighters were definitely a secondary choice until nearly the 60's when technology had advanced sufficently to allow such aircraft to make effective all-weather fighter aircraft.

 

ah well gents hate to inform you that Kurt Welters band of merry men scored every victory with their single seat 262's and no radar. all was from radio to cockpit communication and no ground base radar to fighter. only 1 kill by a 2 seat 262 with Neptun over a Mossie in late spring of 45.
as it will be covered in our book at length they did not fly Wilde Sau but Helle Nacht missions and yes there is a difference though many of the combat operative reports state W.S./H.N. on them. many of the pilots had already proven themselves earlier flying against RAF bombers/Mossies while flying non-radar Bf 109G's..............

I am getting off track but want to set this straight for all of you. The jet nf 262 unit was fed into the bomber stream or the Mossies of the LSNF as individuals so there was no higher command structure than Kurt himself with constant radio communique either in an underground bunker or as simple as an outside set-up tent

 

Two questions and a comment Erich:

How many victories in how many sorties did his unit make?

and,

How did British communications jamming (eg., ABC, Jostle, etc) effect their operations?

And the comment:

This method was not developed in 1942. While there was a method of using searchlights to box a particular bomber in use with the Kammehuber line it did not prove particularly effective. Helle Nacht relied on a combination of ground lighting (mostly the city below burning to the ground in a fire storm) and airborne flares from a supporting aircraft. And, I would think only fairly to very experianced pilots would succeed with such methods and in 1944 the Germans were running short of such men.
As you no doubt know Hermann and the wilde sau method worked for him and other very skilled pilots but for the run of the mill their first mission was often their last.

 

lets just say the kills by the jet unit were just a pin prick though it did boost LW NF moral, around 50 is the given figure but it may go down as low as 35.

the Jamming program worked well on the LW nf's equipped with FuG 220d through the Neptun variants but did not touch the FuG 240 Berlin. Had the twin seat 262 been able to hang on through 1946 the Berlin would of been standard as everything including the outboard underslung jet engines were to be modified and streamlined as part of the wing. the canopy was to be lengthened as well as low slung if that makes any sense. the outboard fule tanks were to be negated and a much longer fuel tank idea along the fuselage - either side was to be implemented, also the Ar 234 was to begin in earnest in the nf role with a redesigned cockpit for two, internal AI radar and of course a new streamlined look almost like a pencil of sorts.

as covered in our book from the very onset when Kurt Welter left JG 301 and his Fw 190A-5 with Neptun 217 he transferred into the Moskito jagd 10./Jg 300 and even then was onboard for his idea to present Fat man with the idea of creating the so called ultimate LW night fighting unit. once ok'd by the great fat one, he shopped literally asking around and having pilots he had flown with in former units-active as well as from the night fighter schools to come into and form his Kommando.

Helle Nacht I have in several paragraphs long buried as to what it actually was termed from the German. Searchlight lanes were used around the big cities to point the way of the RAF recon and bombers so the jet or the single engine prop job could easily follow and flying higher than the victim creep and pick out the distinctive shape of the RAF craft against the lit up earth due to fires/searchlights

 

Hate to burst your bubble, but giving the Germans credit on this forum site is not on.

 

what are you talking about ? I was asked about portions from my future work and gave response, and this is a fair forum in all respects whether you accept Allied or LW claims during the war over the Reich as being truthful or not. In all due respect I had veterans from both sides of the line in my familie fight for their respective countries so get over it

 

If this is directed at me then i meant to be tongue in cheek as you are one of the few apart from me that is willing to give credit to the Germans. If you took that as an insult, there is not much i can do about that.

 

I ask why would you even make a comment like that to me ? I don't know you from a martian so why come up with something like that

 

As i said, the comment was tongue in cheek, i have not seen to many post giving the Germans credit, it was meant to be a joke, i should have qualified my comment that giving the Germans credit will open you up to the Soviet/Allies Dogmaphiles, as they do to me, i thought that you may have taken it as a joke and not either a warning or an insult. And i have learned the hard way to survive on this site is not to take yourself too seriously.

And as i have come from Danish/German stock i most likely lost distant relatives in the European war, it touches everyone.