What Would Have Been?

During the War of 1812 the Canadian and British forces defeated the American nation to forge one nation, 'The United States of Canada".
Now with this in effect I wonder how long Germany, or any agressor against the UK, would last?

This is a what if.
Now the second what if is this. What would happen to the proposed German and Russian alliance as agressors with my proposed What If?

I would like to hear back on this one, but with a condition; back up your theories in sections so it is easier to follow. Please.

Cheers!

 

Okay, let's imagine that the US would then be part of the commonwealth for centuries to come, like Britain's ally in this war, Canada. How much would the states have developed? Would there be any parallel whatsoever with real history? I'm sorry Mutant Poodle, but this scenario has too many options to even start; it removes the greatest power of the age it is about!

 

Yeah - in line with British Impirial policy, America would not have been particularly industrialised - certainly not as much as it was on it's own.
This could have caused problems.

However, the biggest things to point out are:

1) 'America' as we know it would not be as big - the Spanish/Mexicans would still hold the south & west.

2) WW1 would have been a far more decisive victory for Britain & France - they could have employed all that extra 'American' manpower right from the start. This would completely remove from the German nation the idea that they were doing Ok in the war, but were stabbed in the back by their politicians etc. Which was one of the big buttons Hitler (and other extremist parties) pushed repeatedly. The Post-War world would have been very different.

3) With no isolationist USA, the League of Nations would arguably have been far more effective.

4) Backtracking slightly - Britain would have been incredibly powerful. She would still have the big navy, but she would also have the manpower for a big army too. This would probably mean that she felt less insecure, and less in need of signing treaties with France etc. So would we even have got involved in WW1? Would France have suffered another 'Franco-Prussian War', and surrendered a bit more territory to Germany?

Some ideas there for you...

 

The question remains wheter the US would have developed as it did if it was still under British rule...

 

No it would not. Much of America's industrial development was sparked off in order to compete with the British.
If America is British...

Further to point 1) above, what do you reckon the impact would be of a larger/more powerful Spanish / Mexican presence in the Americas?

 

Would there have been any? If the British empire still included the AMerican colonies throughout the 19th century then the greatest world power would have been very obvious. Also, if there was no USA there would have been no Woodrow Wilson, who came up with the idea.

 

Oh, that's true - I forgot it was Wilson's baby.


Yeah, we'd have crushed Germany fair & square, got a not-quite-as-bad-as-Versailles-but-still-a-good-revenge-for-the-Franco-Prussian-War Treaty out of her, then it would have been business as usual (everyone sits around building up their army and looking suspiciously over their borders).

Long Live the 'Great Game'

 

Chesapeake Bay

Rather than disturb this thread, Ive added one to the non ww2 history under the title 'Chesapeake Bay' which has intrigued me for a while.

 

Maps

Does anyone have a map showing 'who owned what' at this time?

 

They would have done that, had they not allied with France? I'm not sure if any treaty like that would have been made if you consider the position of Britain in this scenario.

The implications and ramifications of the what-if are more far-reaching than can be logically determined.

 

Absolutely not. The British would have been able to continue with their policy of merchantilism, raw materials supplied by the colonies are turned into finished goods by the motherland and sold back to the colonies. North America would have been turned into an agricultural station. Bonus, the British would have taken over Spanish possesions in the New World as well. the British Commonwealth never would happened and there would never have been a single Canada.

 

This is the type of discussion I really wanted. Thank you Ricky, those wings must have been earned. :smok:

 

Interesting post but I have to disagree that there would not have been a Canada. The idea of Canada was still there, the manpower and spirit of invention still exsisted. The massive amount of currency in the United States of Canada would not have been stopped.

The close ties Canada has with Europe would still be as strong, that's one thing I think everyone can agree upon. So we do have some common ground here.
With this said the Louisiana Purchase does not happen the way it did, if at all. Now Quebec is truly a productive part and participating part of North America instead of trying to persuade the rest of the world that they have suffered more than any other peoples who have come to North America.

There is also one other fact, that soem have forgotten and some may not know, there would be a true Native Indian nation on the eastern seaboard. This was promised by the governor of Canada at the time of the War of 1812 if the Canadian armies, under British rule, were victorious. The Indian leader/general's name was Tecumseh.

http://www.galafilm.com/1812/e/people/tecumseh.html

He has garnered a representative plaque but I think he is a true warrior hero that desreves a grandieos statue for a more fitting representation of honour, dedication to a cause, skill in combat, and skill in leadership.

Cheers!

 

I agree with you on the Spanish equation in the Americas. Do you think Mexico would have been able to continue to develop and not have her lands robbed from her, as she did under the early American expansionism?
I look at Mexico as the melting pot of the Americas, just like Turkey is for the Mideast and Europe.

Cheers!

 

If Britain had not been Allied to France, Germany would likely have won.
If Britain had been Allied to France, Germany would have been defeated faster, and therefore recieved a 'revenge for the Franco-Prussian War' Treaty (the Germans imposed very harsh terms on the French, which they paid). This would not have been as bad as Versailles (as damage to France would be less, and overall casualties would be less), and so Germany would not be in quite the harsh position it found itself post-war.

Regarding the Mexican & Indian nations...
Although Britain did not have quite the same 'Manifest Destiny' approach to Empire as the USA did, I would not be surprised if war with the Mexicans did not occur. I reckon we'd either have taken all of Mexico (but allowed a limited 'self-rule', like in bits of India) or just walloped them and left them alone, with maybe a few territorial gains (like the bits with gold in!).
As for the Indians - well, Britain was better at holding to treaties with the locals, but I'm sure we'd have not been above stabbing them in the back. At best I reckon they would end up with limited self-rule, under British supervision.

Hey, Mutant, do you know how Canada got it's name?

 

I heard that an explorer asked an Indian what lay up north, to which he replied 'Ka-na-da' (nothing).

 

Early on in the 1500's. Here is the site.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/2889

Christian Ankerstjerne, that is what we still tell Americans that want to know about us. We use a simple knock-out question during any interview with a person we suspect the USA doesn't even want. That question is 'please point out Canada on a world map.' The rest is common sense to the types of answers one can think ouf.

I will never forget the looks of wonderment on some Texans faces when they found out we had skyscrapers, hot running water, and central heating in our buildings. I kid you not. I worked at Expo 86 and came across this on a regular basis.
In fact I am still friends with a family that moved here from Alabama, the mother exclaimed '"why havent I heard about this place, its gorgeous and the people are so nice and smart. Honey, to her husband, we are moving here when we get back."'

I have travelled to a few places and have found that if I had to live somewhere it would be here. Canada has the best oppurtunity for personal and finacial growth, security, peaceful co-exsistence with multi-cultural diversity. What else, well let me think, Canada as a nation considers itself a village attempting to fit in, not rule the world. Well ok, maybe in men's and women's hockey and lacross.

Cheers! :roll: :smok:

 

I had the chance to join my uncle in a travel to Vancouver in 1997.
I spent a week there and also visited Victoria on Vancouver Island, which I really enjoyed very much.

I also remember about some naval museum, but I forgot most about it.

 

Interesting point, with some good value to them.

Please keep the posts coming, this is great!