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Which was the tougher theater - Europe or the Pacific?

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by LRusso216, Oct 8, 2009.

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  1. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    I came across this article in Time Magazine from November 1944. I know we've debated this issue on other threads, but I thought this contemporary view was interesting.

    "Which is the tougher war—in Europe or in the Pacific? To this inevitable argument among veterans, two authorities made curtain-raising contributions.
    The New York Herald Tribune's Correspondent Homer Bigart, who covered the Italian campaign, described his reactions last week to fighting in the Philippines."

    Army & Navy - OPERATIONS: Curtain Raisers - TIME
     
  2. 1986CamaroZ28

    1986CamaroZ28 Member

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    This what my senior project is on right now.

    Weather
    Pacific: 80+ degrees, 80%+ humidity, sudden rain fall that can cause flash floods
    Europe: Snow, drenching rain, biting winds, -20 or more degrees, summer not so bad

    Enemy
    Pacific: Japs fight to last man, kamikazes, banzai charges, they'll mutilate, torture, eat, and rape marines, caves and tunnels under ground, ambushes
    Europe: Germans surrender in the thousands, some fanatical, actaully see Americans as humans and will talk to them, less hate between Americans and Germans

    Navy
    Pacific: Thousands would be torpedoed, go crazy in the water, and get eaten by sharks
    Europe: Beware of U-boats and weather, sucks if in Merchant Marine

    Wildlife:
    Pacific: Have one waking up with a worm in your penis and having to get it out with bamboo tweezers. Plus poisonous snakes, frogs, spiders, mosquitoes, tigers, crocs, leeches etc.
    Europe: Nothing hazardous, lice?

    Battles:
    Pacific: Thousands of casualties on a few miles of land, always have to storm a beach, jungle is an enemy within itself, take hours to chop your way a few hundred yards, everything is hidden,
    Europe: Huge ass battles, forest with trees exploding, crossing rivers in wooden boats, taking hills and mountains

    POWs:
    P: 30% of dying, hellships= drinking your own piss and peoples blood, starving, torture, forced heavy labor,
    E: 2% of dying, march in snow, freezing, get shot at by your own planes when in choo choo train, but germans didn't really torture you

    Combat:
    P: Hand to Hand, actaully killed and saw the enemy, inpenatrable defenses, had to use flame throwers, tanks couldn't help that much, infantry had to do everything, if you were sick or wounded you'd still have to fight
    E: Tanks and air power, almost never hand to hand, 100 men to kill 1 german, germans had better tech and vechiles though, gis would go on patrols and capture germans, you get frost bite you go to the hospital

    End of War:
    P: Okinawa and Phillipines worst battles, Japan invasion= 1 million casualties and war will end in 47 or 48
    E: Germans surrender en mass, mostly russians fighting in Berlin

    Supplies:
    P: Marines got worst food, absolete weapons at first, not many tanks, 84.3 pounds of gear, would starve without water, had to march everywhere
    E: Army got the best equipment, but got winter clothing late, could ride in vechicles, no jungle

    RnR:
    P: Went to Pavuvu or some isolated island.
    E: Bars and clubs, civilization, cities

    Brass: (not so sure on this one)
    P: More generals and high staffers were killed in pacific
    E: very few killed?

    Defenses:
    P: Navy could not knock out defenses
    E: Atlantic wall no problem, siegfried line taken, hedgerows burned, atleast the defenses were passable and destroyed

    This is obviously a rough draft and a lot of the points are argueable, either way it sucked, but maybe the pacific war was worse..... but eastern front was the worst.
     
  3. Totenkopf

    Totenkopf אוּרִיאֵל

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    Dont forget that in Europe's colder winters, you can hear your urine crackle as your doing the deed.


    Anyways, I dont really see it as far to say that one soldier had it easier then another; regardless of what facts say. They all fought against determined enemies and that is enough said.
     
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  4. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    1986,

    A lot of inaccuracies about ETO in your post there. I would agree that casualties by percentage was much higher in the Pacific, but Europe was a General's War and it was harder on the Generals to fight and win in Europe.
     
  5. 1986CamaroZ28

    1986CamaroZ28 Member

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    What were the other inaccuracies?
     
  6. Richie B

    Richie B Member

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    One bit of the post from 1986CamaroZ28 makes me decide !

    "Wildlife:
    Pacific: Have one waking up with a worm in your penis :eek:and having to get it out with bamboo tweezers. Plus poisonous snakes, frogs, spiders, mosquitoes, tigers, crocs, leeches etc"

    I'll take my chances in Europe.

    Richie
     
  7. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    1986,

    Overall very rough, just some tips to help your project ;)
    This was not a common affair, poor argument and not true if you are trying to say how the fighting in the Pacific was harder.
    I think that once your buddy gets killed by a German or Japanese soldier you are going to be pretty pissed.
    What is this referring to? Japanese subs were used far less than effectively
    And what happens if you get sunk in the Atlantic?
    Certainly further analysis needed
    What does this mean?
    Debatable
    How is this relevent?
    Again, this makes it seem as if 1945 Europe fighting was just Germans surrendering left and right, not true. Remember the Battle of Berlin saw hundreds of thousands of casualties
    Not quite
     
  8. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I remember a similar thread a while ago and Southwestpacific reacting on this. His reaction could be summerized in afew words : how could someone possibly measure horror, especially those who were not there? Correct me if I am wrong Jack or if my quote is clumsy. :)
     
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  9. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    Skipper, I remember the thread and Jack's reaction. I posted this as a contemporary view (from 1944) of what one journalist experienced. I won't pretend to quantify the horrors of either theater.
     
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  10. 1986CamaroZ28

    1986CamaroZ28 Member

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    Overall very rough, just some tips to help your project ;)

    Quote:Germans surrender in the thousands

    This was not a common affair, poor argument and not true if you are trying to say how the fighting in the Pacific was harder.

    But this means most of them didn't fight to the death. I Japanese soldier surround will fight, making it harder. 50,000 Germans surrounded (Falaise Pocket) will surrender. Now imagine if those 50,000 Germans fought to the death...

    Quote:less hate between Americans and Germans
    I think that once your buddy gets killed by a German or Japanese soldier you are going to be pretty pissed.

    Guys going back to reunions are pretty friendly with the Germans that served in Africa. They'd give cigarretes and talk to German POWs. Chaplains would wave a red cross flag and bring back American wounded that were on the German side. There wasn't a ton of body mutilation between the enemies, compared to the Pacific. Memoirs from infantrymen who served in ETO don't seem to hate them today, yet 90+ year old men who fought in the Pacific still hate the Japanese with a passion.

    Quote:Thousands would be torpedoed
    What is this referring to? Japanese subs were used far less than effectively.

    Thousands of sailors died in the Pacific, from kamakazies and submarines. It was more of a naval war over there, where if you were sunk, you might get picked up by a Japanese ship earylier in the war.

    Quote:go crazy in the water, and get eaten by sharks
    And what happens if you get sunk in the Atlantic?

    You'd probably freeze to death, but it was mostly the convoys that were attacked right? You got a whole bunch of ships around you to pick you up. And are there sharks in the atlantic? Ask navy vets who served in ETO and Pacific thearter, chances are they never saw anything scary when they were in atlantic waters.

    Quote:Huge ass battles, forest with trees exploding, crossing rivers in wooden boats, taking hills and mountains Certainly further analysis needed

    Ya it's pretty hard to compare, but ask yourself if you'd rather fight in the mountains and woods, or mountainous jungle. Also you have more utilization for artillery, air power, tanks, and vechiles in wide open Euro soil, making less stain on the infantry. Near the end the Germans could only fire a certain about of shells a day, where as the allies could shoot whenever. In the pacfic, the artillery fired with great accuracy cause they had a long time to register it on the island, and within seconds and would slide back into the cave or mountain and nothing could hit it.

    Quote:100 men to kill 1 german
    What does this mean?

    I've seen this stated in a lot of sources. Don't remember why I said that, sorry. I think in the Pacific the average guy shot his weapon more, look at peliliu and other battles they were using blacks and cooks as infantry cause it got so bad.

    Quote:germans had better tech and vechiles though

    Debatable

    Well they had tanks, 88s, tons of radios, but if it's debatable you could said the Japanese had better tech? Then that would help my statement.

    Quote:you get frost bite you go to the hospital
    How is this relevent?

    Because you'd be taken off the line for a "minor" thing. On Guadalcanal and other islands, if you had malaria, diseases, and wounds, you still had to crawl and fight. As long as you could breath you weren't "sick." So everyone had to fight, but it seems they had enough men during ETO battles it didn't have to succumb to that.

    Quote:Germans surrender en mass
    Again, this makes it seem as if 1945 Europe fighting was just Germans surrendering left and right, not true. Remember the Battle of Berlin saw hundreds of thousands of casualties

    Well I've read articles from WWII history magazine and time articles, one in particular talks about how one GI got up and asked the Italians to surrender, and he came back down the mountain with about 600 of them. Didn't thousands of Germans surrender in Africa? And after big battles? Didn't the British POW camps contain thousands of Germans and Italians? And near the end of the war, didn't thousands or hundreds flock to the west to surrender to the Americans instead of the Russians before the war was over?

    Quote:mostly russians fighting in Berlin
    Not quite

    American deaths vs Russian deaths for battle of Berlin? Look at Okinawa, Saipan, the Philippines. Casualties were far worse during the end of the war for that thearter. It was estimated if we had to invade Japan, it would cost 250,000-1,000,000 Americnas, plus millions of dead Japanese, plus the war dragging on far longer. ETO, Russians die for battle of Berlin, we stop fighting in april, if you're in the Pacfic you've got to keep going till June on Okinawa.

    And again this is a comparison to U.S. infantry in Pacific vs Europe, so I'm not accounting for the air war in Europe or the Eastern Front, China, etc.
     
  11. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    I am unable to tell to whom you are replying, or to which parts of whose posts your are replying. Would you mind putting the origianal in bold or italics, and your replies in normal (or something). This looks like a long rambling unconnected dialogue somehow.:confused:
     
  12. 1986CamaroZ28

    1986CamaroZ28 Member

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    lol Sorry for that jumble, didn't look at what the post looked like. I edited it though.
     
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  13. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Thanks much! That is much easier for these old eyes to figure out. Now I can read and perhaps reply to your post. Again, thanks.
     
  14. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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    Noting the article above is USA ethnocentric:
    We (the western allies) managed to stay out of the worst in both theaters.

    The Axis-Russian front had more military combatant fatalities alone than all other theatres of war in WW2 combined.
    - The seige of Leningrad alone had more fatalities than the ENTIRE Allied armed forces in WW2.
    Soviet military fatalities are estimated at 12 million (with a further 17 million civilian deaths)
    - this theatre accounted for 75 to 80% of all German military fatalities.
    (I have yet to see compiled Axis statistics for the eastern front.)

    China suffered 10 to 20 million deaths (35 million total casualties) and likewise accounted for some 70% of all Japanese fatalities.
     
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  15. MastahCheef117

    MastahCheef117 Member

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    I think he means excluding the Eastern Front, Fred.
     
  16. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    Okay. This thread has veered away from what I thought would occur. The article in Time magazine from 1944 gave the views of two journalists who experienced both theaters and recorded their responses. What I was hoping for was a discussion of the views expressed in a contemporary article. There was no sense of debating the issue, just as expression of the difficulties faced in each area. I'm copying the whole article here is hopes that you can re-read it, and respond to their ideas. The other thread devoted to this topic devolved into a virtual shouting match of opinions, which I would like to avoid here.
     
  17. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    the one you fought in. not sure if you can even fairly compare the two, so many differences
     
  18. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    No problem Lou , thanks for making your point :)
     
  19. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    I said I wouldnt post here again, and now Ive confirmed why....If that is what your presenting then take the big hat with the D on and stand in the corner. Amazing truly amazing. Thanks though for confirming my reasons.
     
  20. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

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    While the Japanese didn't take out a lot of allied ships with subs, they DID take out a lot of allied ships with surface torpedo attacks. Something they excelled at. Re: Savo Island.

    Overall, I agree that the Pacific theater was tougher. The ETO, was USUALLY fought within a sense of rules. Not in the PTO. Kill or be killed.
     
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