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Win one for us gun-totin' Gippers! :-))

Discussion in 'Free Fire Zone' started by C.Evans, Jun 26, 2008.

  1. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    Violent death is violent death, Miguel, whether it's inflicted by some tough with a gun, or by a moron with an automobile. Twist it any way you want, but the US is no more violent than Portugal or many other countries. rejecting the facts because they are unpalatable doesn't change the facts.

    I assume you are an average Portuguese citizen, as I consider myself an average American citizen. You state you have been mugged three times, I have never been mugged. I did once, however, find it necessary to display my holstered handgun to a young man who was brandishing a large hunting knife in what he apparently thought was an intimidating manner. After I demonstrated that his knife wasn't nearly as intimidating as he thought, he became very polite and conciliatory.

    Criminals here are VERY careful about whom they attack, but they often make fatal mistakes. Our news media are full of stories about citizens who use guns to protect themselves and I assure you it's not nearly as difficult as you think. Some time ago, in California, a wheelchair-bound man who lived by himself had his home invaded by five vicious young gang members. The man armed himself with his shotgun, and the gang members made the mistake of coming down a hall way after him; three died and two ended up in the hospital. My wife is a nurse practitioner and midwife who sometimes finds herself driving deserted streets at night to aid her patients. She carries a handgun, as do many of her colleagues. Recently, a nurse whom she knows, was assaulted by two young men who thought she carried drugs in her car. She killed both of them. According to studies Americans defend themselves with firearms hundreds of thousands of times each year:

    There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

    See:
    http://http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

    If you prefer to be protected by the police that's you choice, but I, and many other Americans prefer to carry firearms to protect ourselves, because the police frequently aren't around when they are needed. The mugger who you think may have wished he had shot you, may try to do just that the next time around. But if you are armed, he at least must risk his life in order to do so. Most criminals just aren't that stupid because they know if they continue as criminals, sooner or later, an armed citizen will kill them, whereas a cop will more than likely just arrest them and send them to jail. The felons themselves say that they try to avoid armed citizens because they are much more likely to be killed or injured by a citizen than a police officer.
     
  2. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Miguel, we can argue back and forth, our minds are pretty solid. I was raised around weapons, getting my first BB gun when I was 5 and first .22 rifle when I was 11. My father first let me shoot his .38 when I was 7. It scared me to death with the recoil and noise. I didn't dare touch it when he was not around. He taught me never to pull a weapon unless I was prepared to kill. It is with that mindset that I am armed. I don't pull my weapon out to wave around and threaten, that will get me put in jail. I carry my weapon to defend my family and me and I don't take it's use lightly.

    I had a thug to attempt to mug me. The threat of my firearm brought a swift end to the attempt and I never got it fully out of my holster (actually a leather fanny pack that looks innocuous but his made to hold a pistol*). I lost nothing but about 22 seconds of my time and he went his merry way wondering who else on that street may also be packing heat. I would have been in a mess trying to get out a knife to parry his rusty, dull-looking blade. My S&W did the trick.

    * I prefer a shoulder holster, but without a coat on, it is nearly impossible to conceal and still be handy.
     
  3. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Same here Jeff. I have been around weapons for longer then some here have been alive LOL. And I have handled, fired or owned more then I can count right now LOL. My situation was a thief crawling through one of my windows one night. He was armed but one look down the barrel of the SKS I had pointed to him caused him to drop his pistol,a stolen .22 .cal BTW, put up his hands and we both waited for the police to show up.
     
  4. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    First of all, wellsaid guys.

    Miguel.B, there are an estimated 200 million guns in private hands in this country-thankfully-and I happen to be one of those whose household has only three weapons at this time. SOmehting that is also over-looked about the ""liberal"" amounts of available guns that Americans have is that many of these guns are also collectable antiques which will most likely never have another round fired through its barrel. Two of my three weapons fit into this catagory however, I do use my German Army Walther P-38 to go targetshooting with and I just purchased 100 more rounds in order to do so sometime soon.

    The problem with your posting that you say there is too much liberalization on those who can own guns. OK, that might be to the standards of the way of thinking and ways of life in Europe, but you also have to remember that we here-though speaking and writing the same language, and our ways of living is so much different than the way it may be, in Europe.

    "American widespread use of guns is too broad." OK, who is going to be that person to decide on this? I sure as hell, do not want that decision to be made by the likes of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg, or Presidential Candidate: Barack Obama-nor left to be the decision of the Speaker of the House of Representatives-Nancy "Google-eyes" Pelosi. For one, Nancy Pelose-does NOT speak for me-nor does Obama or Ginsberg. Not a one of them has ever met me face-to-face and asked for my opinion or votes on things that they continusouly vote for-that "We" the common person, should also be able to participate in.

    Therefore, "American widespread use of guns is too broad" is also too broad of a statement about gun ownership in America. I have never had any serious run-in with the law-ever, and I do live my life by obeying the law and by my set rules for myself. I have never been a threat to anyone before owning guns to after owning guns. I had three little experiances in my past that just because of owning guns (though all were unloaded at the time) that they saved me from being a possible victim of a crime.

    Nr.1 Case in point: "In early 1988, I was employed delivering newspapers in the early morning hours. I got my supplies at the VERY dark drop-off point, and drove to Faskes Gas Station a few blocks down the road. Once there I proceeded to get out of the car so I could roll the papers quicker-while doing so, and I don't know what possessed me to do so, I also took out a borrowed 9 shot .22 Cal. pistol that I had stashed under my cars seat. This pistol was in a brown paperbag as I didn't want to "advertise" it sitting on the hood of my car.

    About 20 minutes after stopping at Faskes, I was almost through putting the bundles together and bagging the papers when I heard something that sounded like rain. I looked down the street and as I turned to do so, about 100 or so people (all illegals) came running by me down 6th street and made a right turn down Doddridge Street. I was wondering what the heck was going on and realized what happened. Well, about 5 minutes later, another group of about 50 people, came -making the raining noises-and ran down the same street to Doddridge Street. I was thinking WTF? and was thinking of leaving and going elsewhere to work on my newspapers-when two guys came out of the darkness (from 6th Street) and one immediately walked to the front of my car-and started asking me questions and the other-was trying to slip behind me. WIthout hesitation, I grabbed the pistol from the bag and , the guy trying to get behind me-said something in Spanish and they both ran away. This was the first of three times, that having an unloaded pistol-saved my non-Canadian Bacon.

    Nr.2 Case-in-point: "On Halloween night 1994, I was doing some Community Service-working off some traffic tickets I got while in another City earlier that month. I lived an hours drive from that City but, I did all my service within a few weeks. One of the last things I had to do was to do some work at some Halloween festival-head for the kids in some neighborhood Church. After the festival ended, I was on my way down a dark street when my brakes went out and did not work. I pulled into a very dimly lit parkinglot-so dimly lit that it was almost pitch-black. I managed to do a sim million dollar man stunt and opened the door of my car to stop it using my left foot.

    While in that parkinglot, I opened the hood of my car-and naturally, it picked that night for the lightbulb to go out. I reached into my car to try to get a spare bulb from the ashtray, and I don't know why but, I also grabbed the pistol I had from under the car seat. I placed the gun on the airfilter of the car, heard some moise coming from behind the car and saw two guys approaching.

    One guy went to the front of the car-passenger side and asked me for a cigarrette. I said I did not smoke-noticing the other guy stay by the trunk of my car and also trying to move towards me. As my pistol was in a papersack, I reached over and grabbed it-those two guys still not noticing that I was armed-and also not realizing after the fact, that my gun had no ammo in it. Anyway, the first guy asked for $2 bucks for a pack of smokes, I said I had no money-which was partly the truth as I had only $8 bucks on me to get some gas and drive home.

    Anyway, I said I had no money, and the guy said I was lying and the 2nd guy tried to move closer to me as I backed away from the car. When he came towaards me, I pulled out a Walther P-38 (the first one I owned) and I pointed it at the 2nd guy-the 1st guy stayed wherre he was. Guy Nr 2 said Oh shi*! he's got a gun, and they both took off running down the street. I proceeded to put in some brake fluid, got in the car and zoomed down the street-scard shi*less. I drove about 3 or so miles till I came across an open Circle K convience store. Doing that $6 Million dollar man trick again, I pulled up to the gas pumps at the circle K. I was able to fix my problem, gas up and got the hell outta Dodge. This was the 2nd time of having an unloaded weapon on me, that saved my non-Canadian Bacon.

    Case Nr.3 which was at my home in Kingsville and had happened in my frontyard. I had just happened to have several of the guns I had at that time, outside and on a bench in my frontyard-that I was busy cleaninig and or just re-oiling. Less than a week earleier, my then fiancee, had been kiddnapped and raped. The fatherless-pig, was in jail but, had been able to make contact with two of his friends unbeknownst to Heather or myself. Well, Heather had informed me a few days earlier, that two of the rapists friends had been driving slowly past her house trying to intimidate her. I told her i'd gladly give her one of my guns but her mother hated guns and did not allow them in the house.

    OK, while I was cleaning my Chinese made (piece of junk) Uzi, I had a 50 round magazine in its magazine well. I noticed this crappy-looking beat-up small sky blue car, that kept driving down the streets near Heathers house-driving very slowly. The next time I saw that car, there were two gruffy-looking bearder dorks in it-that decided to drive past my house. As they spproached very slowly, both were looking at me, and I just happened to raise up my Uzi, and had let the bolt slide all the way-making it look like I had just loaded a round into the chamber and was ready to fire-which in reality, this piece of junk, was defective, and the bolt easily slid from one position to another.

    Anyway, when those two creeps thought I was loading a round into the Uzi, the driver floored the gas pedal of that car-and I never saw them again.
     
  5. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Well said too :). But only 3????!!!! LOL. I own a few more then that LOL. But Once again I am more responible then alot of owners. Having been around all types all my life from very early on. My dad being in the Army and all that.
     
  6. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    Same for me, Slip. I never had a BB gun, my father started me on a bolt action .22 rifle when I was eight years old; I still have it. When I was ten, he let me shoot his single-shot .22 target pistol. A year or so later, after I had mastered the .22 pistol, he let me fire his Colt .45 Auto. Man, was I scared by that thing, I never touched it unless my dad was present! We lived on a small farm off the county road in southern Oregon, so I learned to hunt with rifle and shotgun at a very early age. My dad taught me some very simple rules; all guns are always "loaded", don't point a gun at anything you don't intend to kill, the only real "safety" is between your ears, guns are very dangerous tools which you must respect and take care of.

    I have come through some scary times when a gun was a definite comfort to me, but I have seen what they can do to both animals and men, and I know that there is no second chance with death; mistakes cannot be corrected, so it's better not to make them.
     
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  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    To be honest I cannot see myself wearing a concealed gun in Finland even if I am taught how to use mortars and bazookas. Of course there is the law here forbidding it but it would be just as weird for me to have a gun as you would be without one. Weird world isn´t it?!!
     
  8. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    So very true. Almost apples and oranges. Some cultures have no problem with firearms and some do. It would seen that in alot of the clutures in the Middle East weapons are part and parcel of daily life.
     
  9. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    "Murders are going way up in Chicago already." That's mainly because the authoritise did so littel about anything for so long and also that some of those murders, might not have happened had the victims been alowed to own a weapon for protection.

    Otto, I fully agree with you on part of this: "but there are certain elements of society, that should not." I can't agree w/ you in that only certain areas of the city can be armed. If that's the case, then what good will it be to let people in other areas of the city-to own handguns. Also, just who is going to be the deciding factor on who gets what? This will leave it wide open for many many lawsuits that should not have happened to begin with.

    Get your American citizenship so you can vote-heck, I highly respect your opinions especially as one who has lived on both side of the fence.

    Well-said Ike, JC, DevilsA, Jeff, on all of your comments.

    Hi JC, after my move, I plan on collecting more Walther P-38's. I might even buy another Intratec DC-9-just because it's the poor mans Grease-Gun. At the heighth of owning guns, I had some 20 or so at one time. I wound up selling most of them to Cop/friends of mine, and gave three away - one each to my Nephews. I had another Walther-but someone broke into my apartment and stole it on Januaru 6th 2000. Im still peeved as heck about it.
     
  10. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    A very good point. Some cultures are very adverse to firearms and others are fascinated by them, and it doesn't seem to matter much what their government says. The Japanese have extremely strict rules about gun ownership and the average citizen isn't even allowed to hold one in his or her hands. Yet wherever Japanese tourists congregate overseas, there are firing ranges where they can indulge their abso;utely crazy fascination for guns. It's funny, but the first time my wife ever held a gun in her hands was during a vacation trip to Hawaii. We had stopped at one of the ranges that cater to Japanese tourists because she was curious. She wanted to fire a 9 MM Glock which, upon firing the first round, she promptly dropped! But it turned out that she was a natural with a handgun, and once we moved back to Oregon, she applied for a CCW.
     
  11. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I was shooting a .22 long before I got my own.
    Add to that, don't put your finger on the trigger until you are about to pull it.
    Ditto on that DA. I worked in trauma surgery for 3 years and saw about about 1 GWS a week. I know what damage they can do.

    Don't think people are just shooting randomly here. Maybe in certain areas with certain kinds of people, but not the rational people I live around. Within my group of friends and family, gun ownership is the norm. I'll bet if you lived here for a while, Kai, we could get you as accustomed to being around weapons as we are. We don't attach any special significance to them, they are just there, like any other tool that requires certain handling. You don't throw around a circular saw wildly, you excercise care with it's use. It is the same with weapons.
     
  12. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    I agree. I have heard comments from many mis-informed Europeans that indicate they have no idea about conditions here, nor the average American's attitude toward guns. Living in a semi-rural area as I do, it's quite natural for people to view guns as tools for protecting one's family and property. I grew up on a rural farm which was at least 45 minutes from the nearest law enforcement and, in any case, we didn't have a phone. My folks, and every one else in our area, kept a loaded shotgun behind the kitchen door in case any visitors were not of a peaceable persuasion. It was considered quite normal, and a prudent precaution. No one that I know ever had to use it, but everyone knew that the residents of any farmhouse could, and would, protect themselves if anyone caused any trouble. No one ever had to call the sheriff who might, or might not, show up the same day he was called, anyway. It was an entirely different world and way of life from what I have seen in Europe and large cities in the US.

    The people who live near me would never dream of handling guns in an unsafe or irresponsible way and would have no respect for anyone who did. My neighbors are sensible, no-nonsense citizens who detest criminals and those elements of society who are not law-abiding. They are not only socially responsible, but look after each other and are willing to protect each other. Having armed people like this around one is immensely comforting. It's true that an armed society is a polite society.
     
  13. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Yes, I do understand, but I´m happy to live in a world where we don´t need to have them with us. that´s all.
     
  14. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Where I live now, it takes the sheriff at least 15 minutes to get here, minimum, usually far more, unless by some miracle a deputy happens to be in the area. It was the same way when I was boy living on a farm.
    One of my favorite sayings.
     
  15. Miguel B.

    Miguel B. Member

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    I prefer an armed society is a scared society. You all talk about fear and how that drives you to buy guns. I still say it, if a burgler is any good you won't even know you're being robbed. Check out the "artists" in italian subways who can steal your shoes without you knowing it. And if someone means to arm you and knows what they're doing you won't stand a chance of drawing a gun.
    Now it's my turn to tell a story, the time I didn't got mugged from my examples earlier (there were more attempts but I'm not that easy to steal) was the time when I had a knife held to my throat. I managed to sweet talk the guy into relaxing and pulling the knife away from my neck. He did so. Major mistake I applied the 14+(between krav maga, judo, karate, brawling, self learned seelf defense, and a source of training I can't tell you about but is highly effective;)) years of martial arts broke his leg in two diferent places (knee cap and hip), his nose, cracked two ribs, and the wrist he was holding the knife (that was the last thing to go). The guy had to do reconstructive surgery so he could walk again (apparently breaking the knee cap is a bad thing for your walking). As soon as he relaxed, I grabed his knife arm. While he was still figuring out what was happening I broke his knee, then with my second and third kicks I broke his hip bone, then I striked his face and broke his nose then I punched him with uncanny precision in his flank a few times cracking two floaters. As I was still pissed cause the guy threatened to kill me I broke his knife bearing wrist (tough he had droped the knife sometimes earlier maybe when he vomited or something). All without a gun. I proceded to call the police and the ambulance. It was in the police report "self defense and adjusted use of strenght.".
    So, you don't need a gun to "save" you.
    I agree with what you said about mentalities being diferent but as I said earlier, I love guns and I'm confortable around guns. The first time I shot a shotgun, I was 11 I made target practice (in my grandfathers house) every year. My great grandfather made guns. Still, I can't agree with your policy regarding guns sorry. It's just too easy for mistakes to happen. Deaths on the roads are violent granted, but the site you gave didn't diferentiate between ccidental deaths and violent deaths. For instance I trip and drop an anvill from a second floor and kill someone. Is that a violent death?

    Well, seing as we're all too stuborn to change :p I guelss I'll stop my rant here.



    Cheers...


    Edited to give my background on martial arts.
     
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  16. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    I agree, provided you have the time, physical ability, and motivation to become an unarmed martial arts expert. Not everyone does.


    YES! About as violent as death gets. Messy, too.
     
  17. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Of course the only time Ive seen this happen is in cartoons LOL. As regards to "Martial Arts" you don't see many stories ,if at all, of anyone fighting off an attacker with a firearm. Or any other attacker for that matter. What are the odds that an attacker would encounter someone with that kind of training?
     
  18. skunk works

    skunk works Ace

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    Anvil control now! That's the "Magic Pill", then we can all dance around the Maypole and have a happy/peaceful life forever. Ha Ha Ha.

    God created man. . . Sam Colt made them equal !

    Get real
    grounding a child makes them want to sneak out
    prohibition enables bootlegging
    war on drugs makes it pay better, more enticing (worth the risk)
    rationing begets black market
    and possibly even the worst of all, totally "ONE" way (Victorian) divorce laws are creating a resurgence in the worlds oldest profession !

    know this about human nature

    don't fall for the (Gypsy) politicians playing their usual (divert your attention, while they rob you) games. This has nothing at all to do with the biggest problems we have.

    Another "Red Herring", "Pink Elephant", "Snipe Hunt", attempt by them to pull you around by your "Johnson".

    Gay marriage

    Stem Cell Reasearch
    Abortion
    Prayer in Schools
    Smoking Bans
    P-C ................................
    it is all TRIVIAL BS

    Economy (in the Crapper)
    Infrastructure (falling apart)
    Defense (the BORDER)

    We pay them to (well) to take care of these problems first. If you want a second list...

    Education
    Health care
    Lower taxes

    When they repair all this FIRST, then we can discuss the rest of the inane/mundane agenda of touchie-feelie wants.

    First things first.

    This useless Congress has painted themselves into a corner, and they want your applause for doing it, and you're giving it to them.

    Vote the "Rascals" OUT !

     
  19. Miguel B.

    Miguel B. Member

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    I don't agree with what you call trivial. That's the social part of our society. Would it be ok for you if you had a great economy with amazing infrastructures, but lived
    in a dictatorship? Where you couldn't do anything the state didn't sanction? Stem cell research is a major thing. It can find a cheap cure for let's say, cancer. Also, in a not so far away future, we can talk about spinal reconstruction (fighting that paralysis) and organ regeneration. How is that not important? And do you think it's right for a state to decide who you should love? Is it ok for a state to say "you can't marry a person you really love and possibly construct a great family with good values just because you're from the same sex". If private churches wanna do that, that's ok. But the state should only be there to asist the people not repress tham. Also, people with good social welfare are more productive and are less likelly to currupt themselves.

    I won't dwelve on the other subjects you call BS as this is not the place but they are all extremelly important.


    Oh and someone mentioned the odds of finding someone with the kind of martial arts training I have are quite high in my area but hey, I study next to one of the best Kung Fu academies in Europe :p

    Seriously some guys there do stuff that looks drawn from the matrix or something... amazing.
    And, against firearms is trickier as in a previous post I talked about the time I was at gunpoint. But there are people who do it (rather stupidly if you ask me) nd manage to walk away... Even against a knife I had to make a few considerations. First the guy was a junky and quite weaker than me. the knife he was holding was an average kitchen knife (those you use to cut an hard steak for instance). As the guy was a junkie, his reaction time was quite slow as I could tell from his dragged speach and the way he moved. Basicaly he was way over his league (ah modesty is a wonderfull thing :)).
    As for the accidental death involving an anvil, I don't think that should be considered on declaring a society violent. I can use other examples if you like.
    Imagine if a Piano dropped on someone head by accident. :D



    Cheers...
     
  20. skunk works

    skunk works Ace

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    The argument about it is what's trivial, and the diversion away from what's important to Piss time away (until tenure/pension) is criminal. If you want a tax base to pay for all these "New Deal" plans.....you better make sure there's a "BASE" to tax!

    Nero "Fiddled" while Rome Burned. Which doesn't mean I don't like Fiddle playing (which I do), it just means....wrong time for this. There'll be a time, so don't play the old lawyer trick of commit to when. When bridges fall down & dams break, talking about gun control is nonsense.

    Without the infrastructure, economy, defense, You'd have nowhere to launch your (big idea of) brass polishing on the Titanic.....from ! And without education, health, and a fair amount of leftover resources from your own labor, you'd have neither the smarts to see these things, the health to challenge them them, or the resources to pursue them.

    as I said....First things First

    Many are tired of this "Cart before the Horse" philosophy of the Liberal intellectual elitists, and their agenda of change. They continue to out-think themselves, searching for something better in their existence, and forgetting all about what it takes to exist. Helpless & hopeless in all endeavorers except mutiny, rebellion......a child.

    Generation "E" for entitlement. All necessities are a "given", and your only job is to rewrite (what is supposed to be free)(according to you), into something you like better, totally forgetting how to build, maintain what it takes to have what you have, and get what you got. Not to mention all those who came before you who worked and died to make it all possible.

    Back seat drivers, but they don't buy gas, tires, tune-ups, or oil, mufflers and insurance.

    They just demand speed, direction, temperature, and radio station.








     

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