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WWII, V-E Day: The War in Numbers versus The War of Numbers

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe' started by Arusha, May 7, 2019.

  1. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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    Sir, my apologies for failing to read your mind. No matter the differences, I do respect you and your opinion. This time, as promised, I have something controversial up my sleeve, though nothing wrong intended or implied. Professionally, I have always lived within an environment of conflicting ideas; therefore, I have always loved THE THREE MEN IN A BOAT. One of the greatest that I have read. There are many other books I loved reading. Somerset Maugham, The Short Stories (4 volumes), in particular. Hemingway, complete collection.
    This one is not as good, I must admit; but I am the author (3 minutes read, only)
    JOKER NOVEL or MASS MEDIA CHATTERBOX HIGHLIGHTS
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  2. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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    Sir, WE ALL MEAN WELL WITH UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCIES.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  3. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    You could use a proof reader. I saw 1,20,000 and wasn't sure just what you meant without looking at other figures where it's clear you dropped a "0". The abbreviation you use for million "Mn" isn't the conventional one used in the US anyway. I had to look it up. More common are "M", "MM", and "MI". Also noted that you were randomly switching between the European and US decimal conventions i.e."," and "." in at least one of your tables.

    In one table you list inductions into the German army as well as those mustered out. Did you account for those who repeated the process? Early in the war Germany sent a lot of men back to industry only to recall them as need arose.

    On the table USSR hardware manufacturing volumes you have small arms foot noted "Net of pistols and revolvers". It's unclear just what you mean by this to me.

    I find it kind of odd that you looked at overall statistics for Germany and yet neglected the Soviet allies. This kind of gives the impression that the Red Army was responsible for all German losses.
     
  5. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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    Nobody is perfect and typos are typos. I prefer using British m and mn rather than M, MM or MI; though there are also Ks being used for 4-digit numbers. War studies take multiple efforts, invariably, due to the scope of work involved. The tables are sourced, always. Sitting at two opposite places at a time would be a back breaking job in terms of calculation of losses. The US analysts will know best their own numbers likewise the Russian analysts will know best their own numbers since they will have immediate access to the records and archives, respectively. Regretfully, the numbers have always been used as political tools to the detriment of facts, East and West. I have never seen a WWII Study resulting from the combined efforts. Pick and choose quotes resulting in truncated war stories. Recently, I learned about the ALSIB operation, for example; there are monuments, there are docs and records, there are names listed and we know next to nothing about people involved in those efforts including their losses due to technical failures en route when an engine snag/failure would be a death warrant to an unlucky pilot and that included 37 American female pilots “perished in action,” their survival chances were 0 versus that of the crews shot down over Berlin. I have seen WWI and WWII history books written by a single hand and which I find strange due to enormity of the job challenges.

    Please see below a link to a Russian movie (2006) about those heroic ladies; no drum-beating or the like, just a story about all those young people, men and women in arms during the war where people would be listed KIA or MIA with no guns firing. Unfortunately, no subtitles. Could be a blockbuster to tell their story in the US.


     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Frankly your writing strikes me as of the "stream of consciousness" style. You make some valid points and have some interesting data but throw in a lot of what seam like random or irrelevant pieces of information that make it hard to follow. This is my impression from your post here as well as the one above I commented on. Again you need to proof read or have someone else proof read keeping in mind exactly what point you want to make. In the post above or instance I'm not sure what you are trying to say with about 1/4 of the words you wrote. Nor do I see the point of linking a video.
     
  7. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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    1) Sir, the Video is for your education, and for you to learn something you may have never heard about, if you care and at no cost.

    2) I can't make you read my mind nor can I read your "stream of consciousness technique." I sense your points in terms of a lawyer throwing in his agreements and who sees and hears nothing except his own points. We are not at the bar, Sir.

    3) I told you point blank the tables had been sourced from a huge study referenced in the end, you didn't see the reference, did you? If you are suggesting someone to proofread me, I am not in the mood to commission one. I told you point blank that my stories cover the Soviet/Russian part of the WWII efforts, that's it...

    4) Sure enough, I plan to bridge the gap in my knowledge of WWII events in terms of the Allies and their campaigns in France and Italy and elsewhere.

    5) Though, I am more interested in the Pacific area due to the scale of the operations of which we knew very little except for the fact that the Japanese and the US forces had been engaged in major naval battles (apart from the War-Story-Movies).

    6) There are great stories to learn about; this is the reason I jointed the Forum: for the benefit of my education.

    7) Should you find my points irrelevant, please ignore them and forgive me for failing to reach out.

    8) Coming back to the Video: do the subtitles and sell the story.


    Regards and best of luck.


    Arusha
     
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    So not particualry relevant to the things under discussion. That one of the issues that plague your writing.
    It's a style of wriing the is characterized by writing down your thoughts as they occur whether or not they are relevant to the topic at hand or well organized. It's a style that has produced some notable fiction but for factual works is rather opaque.
    ????
    Did you scan the tables and run then through OCR software? That could explain the switching back and forth between "," and ".". You could also proof read it yourself, in discussions with my wife over the topic she has mentioned reading things out loud tends to help one pick up the issues. Having a friend or college read it through usually works as well.
    What was this in reference to?
    I think we've a thread on good books on this topic. IMO Shattered Sword is one of the best although it focuses on the lead up to and battle of Midway only. Not quite sure why this was sepereated from 4 or if its a general comment or was sparked by something I wrote.
    One of the problems that frequent forum discussions is that people will bring up irrelevant points that tend to fragment and defocus the topic of the thread under discussion. In many cases these points are well worth discussing but not in that particular thread. Another problem is a poster may have some very valuable points and information but if there are too many irrelevant ones in his post they tend to be disregarded. If you think a point worth discussing but it's not relevant to the thread at hand start a new thread if it's not worth discussing and not relevant no need to write it down at all.
    ????
     
  9. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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    The battle of Leyte Gulf, we have as lttile knowldge of this one as you have of the Soviet Manchuria Campaign resulting in the defeat of the Japanese army in China
    Soviet invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia

    To change the subject: what's your take on this post: Kozma Prutkoff Speaks up Again

    In particular, the bottom line: "Where is the beginning of the end that comes at the end of the beginning?"
     
  10. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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    4) Just to get a better grasp and understating of the scale of the events....
     
  11. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    A couple of recommendations then. For the Battle of Samar Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors for the Southern thrust Battle of Surigao Strait
    I think Glantz covers it a lot more thoroughly in August Storm. See:
    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a144378.pdf
    or a number of other sites or hard copy. Technically Manchuria wasn't part of China at the time and that's where the Soviet effort was focused although it spread into Korea and even some Japanese Islands.
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    and
    Ahhh, now we have it! You have confused the word "education" with the word "entertainment."

    FYI, the Russian movie is "Entertainment," as well as, complete and utter bull crap. No female pilots ever flew from Alaska to the Soviet Union and or it's territories. In fact, these female pilots never left the US, flying only the initial leg from factories to the collection point at Great Falls, Montana. At which point the aircraft were handed over to male pilots to continue the ferry journey to Alaska and on to Soviet controlled territory.

    Also, it was 38 American female pilots that were killed in service - not perished in action, which implies Killed In Action(KIA). Further, all 38 female pilots were killed in the continental United States(CONUS).
    The list
    [​IMG]

    Now if you truly wanted to give someone an "Education", you would have sent them here:
    38 Women Airforce Service Pilots Killed in Service (Part 1)
    Rather, than sending the to some fantasy film.
     
  13. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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    This one is also... a fantasy film? For education or just to to refresh memories? Did you mean 38 female pilots died in the US controlled territory as well? Concerning the ALSIB story, there are records showing female pilots flying over there. Need checking out the details.... Could be film makers' own story, this is there domain. I will dig for for more information to see whether it did happen or not. The fact is 8,000 air craft were delivered, as a result. Nevertheless, I find your language intentionally rude and offensive, Sir, therefore, I drop out from discussion. The use of the term "perished in action" is intentional, to emphasize the circumstances, they were not killed, they perished or died in service,and not during a military action; the terms KIA and MIA are well known, and you could see them being used in the same text. Thanks. My apologies for errors, if any.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  14. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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  15. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    No...I mean only 38 total died throughout the war. None went overseas, and none died in Russia. This is a fanciful concoction of the Russian filmmakers.

    Then show the records, and not some fantasy film. Don't be pawning fantasy off as fact.

    HINT - Check the details first, then post. Saves the rest of us time and aggravation.

    Please don't, the term is misleading. A runner drops dead of a heart attack, they also "perished in action", the action being running. Heck, you could say that everyone has "perished in action", the action being living.
     
  17. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  18. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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    Apologies, if anything....
     
  19. Arusha

    Arusha Member

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  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    With a title that sounds like a porn sight and no description of the contents why would any thinking person click on that link? Indeed my first thought was to report it as spam.
     

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