Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Yamato verses Iowa

Discussion in 'Naval Warfare in the Pacific' started by Ron, Oct 3, 2000.

  1. Dave55

    Dave55 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,377
    Likes Received:
    191
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Thats a big 'if' and even if they had equal radar, Iowa's huge advantages in speed and range would have allowed her to toy with Yamoto until she ran out of fuel.
     
  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    8,742
    Likes Received:
    1,849
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    This is a dubious claim at best, given that, at a 30 knot speed and an 18.1-inch shell's flight time of 98.6 seconds, the Iowa will have traveled 1,656.5 yards. The USS Iowa can easily close the distance by turning as soon as the Yamato fires. Thus, the Iowa can get into effective range for her 16-inch guns with minimum risk to herself.
     
    USS Washington likes this.
  3. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,247
    Likes Received:
    132
    So the Yamato hit two sitting ducks. About as skillfull as hitting a towed target raft. She wouldn't fare as well against a far faster, more manouverable target who is shooting very accurately at Yamato.
     
  4. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,267
    Likes Received:
    661
    Location:
    Auburn, Alabama, US
    12 years and neither the Iowa nor the Yamato is yet to sink the other ? Boy they are evenly matched !

    This has been a good thread and some nice great had been provided, many thanks . A side question. When KG V and Rodney closed and fired virtually point blank did any of their projectiles penetrate the main belt of Bismarck?
     
  5. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,247
    Likes Received:
    132
  6. Bucketfoot-AL

    Bucketfoot-AL New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    11
    Not sure what you are referring to as far as "range", but if you're talkng about the range of Iowa's 16" guns it was about 42,000 yards max while Yamato's 18" guns had a max range of about 46,000 yards per www.navweps.com

    When you combine that with the larger punch of Yamato's shells (3200lbs Type 1 armor piercing shell vs. 2700lbs for Iowa's heaviest Type 1 shells) with Yamato's superior armor Yamato clearly has the edge - not a huge one, but an edge none-the-less:

    Iowa: Belt: 12.1 in (310 mm)
    Bulkheads: 11.3 in (290 mm)
    Barbettes: 11.6 to 17.3 in (295 to 439 mm)
    Turrets: 19.7 in (500 mm)
    Decks: 7.5 in (190 mm)


    Yamato: 650 mm (26 in) on face of main turrets[7]
    410 mm (16 in) side armor[7]
    200 mm (7.9 in) central(75%) armored deck[7]
    226.5 mm (8.92 in) outer(25%) armored deck[7]
     
  7. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,267
    Likes Received:
    661
    Location:
    Auburn, Alabama, US
    Gromit801, Sincere thanks for the great link. I watched the underwater TV exploration of the Bismarck but have not seen this report. I admit it is fascinating to ones morbid curiosity. One could never imagine what that last hour must of been like and I am only through page 26 !! I felt compelled to stop and say thank you and now will continue and report back later.

    Gaines
     
  8. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    8,742
    Likes Received:
    1,849
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    You mean this "superior" Yamato armor?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Dave55

    Dave55 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,377
    Likes Received:
    191
    Location:
    Atlanta
    I saw that plate at the Washington Navy Yard back in the 1980's. Most impressive.

    As for 'range', I meant steaming range, 14000 miles for the Iowas vs 7000 for Yamato.
     
  10. Bucketfoot-AL

    Bucketfoot-AL New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    11
    Thanks. I thought you might have meant cruising range. I know that Iowa's 16" shells could penetrate Yamato's armor and obviously the reverse is also true. The armor tested against the Mark 7 16" guns (photos above) by the USN happened to be, I believe, turret armor from Shinano's turrets, which of course probably weren't finished as the Shinano was reengineered into a carrier ....

    In any event, the speculation regarding Iowa vs Yamato has never interested me much - what does excite me is Rob Lundgren's book because thanks to his research we now have a much better idea as to Yamato's capabilities - there is no longer any doubt that she would have been a formidable opponent for the Iowa ...
     
  11. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    31
    But at what range was this plate penetrated?
     
  12. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    31
    I have Rob Lundgren's book and corresponded with him up to it'e release. He sent me a copy in PDF form before it's actual release and it is a great read. It also seems that Kongo may have hit a DD at like 26-28K .
     
  13. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,267
    Likes Received:
    661
    Location:
    Auburn, Alabama, US
    It is English for Ciao :)
     
  14. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    31
    How is a CVE even if just going 18-19 knots a sitting duck at 34K yards? Furthermore don't forget about the smokescreens Kurita had to put up with.
     
  15. Bucketfoot-AL

    Bucketfoot-AL New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    11
    Here is a link to a looooong thread about this testing of Yamato's armor. The main dispute seems to be over the angle at which the armor was propped up during the test (ie some folks state that at the angle it would have been as mounted on the turret it would have been much harder to penetrate.) Not sure what the distance was. [Deleted estimate given during debate on the below thread as it may not have been accurate]

    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/multimedia-jukebox-room/8896-yamato-armour-vs-16-50-a.html
     
  16. Bucketfoot-AL

    Bucketfoot-AL New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    11
    Assuming you are talking about White Plains and Gambier Bay, neither of which was still when hit, what about Yamato's delivering the kills shots on Johnston with her first and ONLY salvo at this target that suddenly appeared from a squall 14,000 yards away? Or peppering Hoel with her 6" guns while both ships were moving and while she was busy turning to avoid Hoel's torpedoes, once again delivering the kill shots (Yamato hit Hoel's port side, and shortly afterwards Hoel listed to port and sank). That was at 6,000 yards, of course, "point blank range" ...
     
  17. Bucketfoot-AL

    Bucketfoot-AL New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    11
    As an aside, if this fellow Ron who started the thread is still with us, could he - or an Admin - please CORRECT the typo in the thread title ("VERSUS".

    Being obsessive as I can be, its driving me NUTS ever time I log in... :rant:
     
  18. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    31
    Yamato's turret armor really couldn't be penetrated at any realistic range other point blank range.
    http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-040.htm

    and an interesting discussion here on the battle where Yamato scored her long ranged hit.
    http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/24680/Top-five-battleships-of-all-time?page=8
     
  19. Bucketfoot-AL

    Bucketfoot-AL New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    11
    Well we can already surmise that Ed from the Bosamar website will attempt to cherry-pick individual out-of-context quotes from after-action reports to find reasons to disbelieve Rob Lundgren's book. Rob has sent me several detailed emails showing the disingenuousness of most of the arguments questioning Yamato (and the other battleships of Centre Force) marksmanship at Samar. I won't repeat the email because it was private but will quote one thing from it regarding the fellow who said that since Fanshaw Bay said the visibility was 12 miles the long-range Japanese shots couldn't have happened:

    "One gentleman said visibility was only 12 miles. So White Plains could not have been hit at 34-33,000 yards because Yamato could not see her. He gets 12 miles from Fanshaw Bay's report. Yet Fanshaw Bay herself documents sighting Japanese ships at 15 miles. Kinkaid's report says visibility was 17 miles. But all of this is the incorrect place to look. The Japanese are twice as tall. I think Yamato is 110 feet tall Vs. maybe 50 feet for a carrier. The Japanese sight US ships at 41,000 yards but more important at the time White Plains is hit they also document what the US ships are actually doing such as turning east, launching planes, beginning to make smoke. Clearly they can see the US ships."

    Another thing that Robert pointed out to me was the following incredulous factoid, which in itself is a DAMNING INDICTMENT of the US historians' shoddy work on the Battle off Samar over the decades:

    A majority of the authors who have written on this subject NEVER read Yamato's after-action report (based on their bibliographies).

    Robert had ALL of the Japanese after-action reports translated afresh during his research. This was apparently not deemed very important by some of the authors that the skeptics on Yamato's performance apparently fall back on.

    I resisted the temptation to post some snarky comments on the Bosamar fellow's Facebook page - he himself has apparently produced a (hack?)work on the subject several years ago, so he is probably bending like a pretzel at the moment in his anger that his own (hack)work is being shown up as what it is by Rob's work.

    "
     
  20. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,247
    Likes Received:
    132
    A 17 kt CVE, Is a sitting duck. That Yamato might have been handy with her secondary armament doesn't count for much against an Iowa.
     

Share This Page