All the kings men!

everbody knows that britain was very close to be invaded by germany during ww2.
the king has gaurds of his own right? if britian was over run by the germans,would the king allow his men to fight and defend britain against the germans?

i heard the the kings men are very loyal and fight hard! would the kings men be more powerfull and aggressive more soo thane thee waffen ss men?
if the kings life is at stake,i would think so.

which is would be more powerfull-
the waffen ss or the britains kings men?

the kings men i wass talking about is during ww2,not the romans times.

 

What? If you browse trough the forums you'll get a lot of discussions regarding Sea-lion (mostly in the wif section). If you read a bit, you'll see that Britain wasn't even close to be invaded.

As for the question per se, what interest does it make if one is stronger or weaker? Single units don't win wars.



Cheers...

 

ok,i should have read the forums first soorry.

it is an interaest when you have the kings men going up agianst the waffen ss!
i was thinking the kings men would be more vishers to protect there king ande actaully be a bit little buit stronger than the waffen ss .(if one on one units of cause).
i was just curious in what would the out come be,but did not realized that there is other threds all ready been made up on this subject.

 

The unit's you refer to are the Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Coldstream and Grenadier Guards which are essentially Infantry units that happen to be rather good at foot drill. Other units have taken on the role of guarding the monachy like the Royal Artillery for example.

There are also Cavalry units like The Household Cavalry with are mounted on horses or in tanks depending on their role.

The term 'King's Men' for me suggests all the British Army as they all fight for the King after taking his shilling.

May I suggest a google of the above units to find out about each individual one.

Cheers

 

If I remember correctly, the King had a unit almost like the popes Swiss guards.

You must consider that the SS at the time was rather small so they had the very best of fighting men: Very fit youth, and nationalist Criminals. They had gained much experience in Poland, Benelux and France. Not to mention they had a great leader pool to teach them.


Fascist discipline was very different then Democratic. The SS could be ordered to fight to the last and they would, while and Democratic force would retreat or surrender if the "poo hit the fan"

If this came down to a final battle in London or Birmingham the SS would take no prisoners.

 

Heidi, the King and queen were actually allocated an infantry coy from the Northpampton regiment or the Northampton Militia, I'm not sure now But I'll find the reference to it at the time of the invasion scare.

I seem to remember it being mentioned in Invasion by James Bonds authors brother...thats a mouthfull, but its straignt from memory and forget names easily.

 

Totenkopf, in those days, which are much different to today obviously, and I know as many Brits were capable of surrender as any others, but any unit tasked and I mean the smaller guard unit not the parent Division of Guards or Household division etc, but the small personal detachment I would say would not hand over the king before themselves..unless ordered by the King himself to protect their lives...Just a view but one I think would have been in most of those responsible at the times minds and thoughts.

 

Well I suppose the Household Cavalary seem similar to the Swiss guard but are also regular soldiers of the British Army, All the Household and Guards regiments have a massive espirit d'corps, including absolute loyalty (officers were appointed by the King) and a singular tradition of markmanship- not just square bashing. The other dress up unit the Yeoman of the Guard and Beefeaters are only cerimonial royal bodyguards.

It is a bit of a what if question (and perhaps should be in that discussion group) but whatever Guards (infantry) and Household Division were guarding the Monarch at Buck House they would be well able to deal with a suprise attack by Airborne troops or an SS snatch sqaud and re-enforcements from Knightsbridge barracks are only a short distance away. In addition the royal family then as it is today, had a close in protection squad.

Had there been a successful landing the Royal family would have been spirited away,
first to a remote area of the UK (northern Scotland or Cumbria) and then to Newfoundland. These plans were well rehearsed and could activate at a moments notice.

~Steve

 

My Dad's uncle was the 'now' close protection for the Duke of Kent before the outbreak of war.

Cheers

 

The Coats mission....Lt.Col J.S Coats of the Coldstream Guards, consisting of 1 coy of that regiment transported in civilian motor coaches, and 4 armoured cars 2 manned by Northamptonshire Yeomanry and 2 by 12th Lancers, He was given no written orders but told that in an emergency it would be his duty to escort the king and queen who in theory were to keep one suitcase packed for this contingency and escort to a place of safety, there were obviously no ways of knowing what would be safe areas in event of even an airborne raid on the royals, but a number of country houses were earmarked as possiblle refuges in any immediate emergency

Service in what King George was late to call 'My Private Army' was much sought after and the Coats mission was not disbanded until the threat of invasion was eventually lifted.

According to Operation Sea Lion...Peter Flemming

 

atachment
View attachment 5952
Humber Mk1 several were converted to the humber Ironside special for the express use of the Royal Familly and senior politicians in extremis. Somewhere I have a photo of HRH Queen Elizabeth exiting from one.

The Northampton Yeomanry was an armoured Car Regiment prior to WW2 as a militia batalion, no doubt they only saw A/Cs at annual camps.

~Steve

 

Just typed Coats mission into net and good ole wiki comes up with an item. Although it says mission created in 1941. Flemming says 1940. Flemmings book is just about Sea Lion in 1940 so I wont comment on Wiki.

Although it does inform us of the houses to be used. And the subsequent force that took over on disbandment.

 

We will be getting into the what if scanarios again if we aint careful here, but I would suggest the fighting in the uk if invaded would have been much different to the fighting the Brits put up in France in 1940. No where to go and a homeland to defend. I see no difference in the British soldier fighting feasomely for his homeland as the German did with his homeland...The result...who knows? Then we are into what if...and I will say, if it was possible then why didn't it happen? If Britain was such an easy conquest, then why am I still here and spouting off the support of my dads generation?
Precisely because IF is a big word...if, and if and if some more....if never happened because if was not worth the gamble.

 

Tend to agree with Urqh, The scenario of guards units fighting in London or Birmingham against SS regiments would be very different from fighting in europe, however the actuality of this scenario, Guards batalions fought hard in Europe only withdrawing or surrending when ordered to do so. Conversely Herr High Command was faily unimpressed with the fighting ability of the 3 SS regiments LAH Das Reich and Totenkopf involved in the attack on France and war crimes some commited would certainly stiffen the resolve of a "democratic" force, especially as they would be defending hearth and home.

 

i just want too make sure you guys know what kings men i am talking about.
it's the kings men that were the red uniform with the long black hat that garud "packumham palce and king ang queen.
the kings men that arn't allowed to smile and laugh and talk to any one on duty,those the kings men i am talking about.

Cheers.

 

That will be these then.

 

Heidi

Yes the foot guards are the pretty red tunniced soldiers with Bearskins on their heads.

And comprise The Grenadier, the Coldstream, Scots, Irish and Welsh Guards in that order of seniority and constitute the Household division.

The Household Cavalry who are the pretty guys with plums and breastplate comprise
2 regiments the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals (Royal Horse guard and 1st Dragoons) There is also a battery of Horse artillery which is part of the Royal Horse Artillery and as the Salute battery is Kings troop Royal horse Artillery.

They all are fully trained professional soldiers who rotate through normal combat duties foot guards as infantry, cavalry as reconnaissce to the Armoured Corps regiments and the RHA is part of the Royal Artillery -generally manning SPGs.

In Canada there is also a Governor Generals Horse guard that carries out the cerimonial function of the houshold cavalry for the Canadian head of State which is a throw back to the old Dominion status same probably still applies in India.

~Steve

 

Heidi, a list of the places the Guards fought in WW2:
Coldstream Guards:
Dyle, Defence of Escaut, Dunkirk 1940, Cagny, Mont Pincon, Quarry Hill, Estry, Heppen, Nederrijn, Venraij, Meijel, Roer, Rhineland, Reichswald, Cleve, Goch, Moyland, Hochwald, Rhine, Lingen, Uelzen, North-West Europe 1940 '44-45, Egyptian Frontier 1940, Sidi Barrani, Halfaya 1941, Tobruk 1941 '42, Msus, Knightsbridge, Defence of Alamein Line, Medenine, Mareth, Longstop Hill 1942, Sbiba, Steamroller Farm, Tunis, Hammam Lif, North Africa 1940-43, Salerno, Battipaglia, Cappezano, Volturno Crossing, Monte Camino, Calabritto, Garigliano Crossing, Monte Ornito, Monte Piccolo, Capture of Perugia, Arezzo, Advance to Florence, Monte Domini, Catarelto Ridge, Argenta Gap, Italy 1943-45

Scots Guards:
* North-West Europe: Stien, Norway 1940, Quarry Hill, Estry, Venlo Pocket, Rhineland, Reichswald, Kleve, Moyland, Hochwald, Rhine, Lingen, Uelzen, North-West Europe 1944–45
* North Africa: Halfaya 1941, Sidi Suleiman, Tobruk 1941, Gazala, Knightsbridge, Defence of Alamein Line, Medenine, Tadjera Khir, Medjez Plain, Grich el Oued, Djebel Bou Aoukaz 1943 I, North Africa 1941–43,
* Italy: Salerno, Battipaglia, Volturno Crossing, Rocchetta e Croce, Monte Camino, Campoleone, Carroceto, Trasimene Line, Advance to Florence, Monte San Michele, Catarelto Ridge, Argenta Gap, Italy 1943–45

Irish Guards:
* North-West Europe: Pothus, Norway 1940, Boulogne 1940, Cagny, Mont Pincon, Neerpelt, Nijmegen, Aam, Rhineland, Hochwald, Rhine, Bentheim, North-West Europe 1940 1944–45,
* North Africa: Medjez Plain, Djebel bou Aoukaz, North Africa 1943,
* Italy: Anzio, Aprilia, Carroceto, Italy 1943–44

Welsh Guards:
Defence of Arras, Djebel el Rhorab, Boulogne 1940, Tunis, St Omer-La-Bassee, Hammam Lif, Bourguebus Ridge, North Africa 1943, Cagny, Monte Ornito, Mont Pincon, Liri Valley, Brussels, Monte Piccolo, Hechtel, Capture of Perugia, Nederrijn, Arezzo, Lingen, Advance to Florence, Rhineland, Gothic Line, North West Europe 1940 and 1944–1945, Battaglia, Fondouk, Italy 1944–1945

I've missed out the grenadiers because I couldn't find a decent list but as you can see Heidi, the 'kings guards' (the blokes in the red jackets) did their bit!

 

Thats what I value this forum for so much! Difference in Opinion!



I guess to really try to form a logical conclusion we would have to have a full scenario layed out.

 

Totenkopf, no you wouldn't not at all. This is a very simple what if:

Would the Guards regiments have fought to defend the king in WW2, well, if you look at that list of battle honours it becomes very clear that the regiments in question did indeed fight during the war.

Your comparison to the Swiss Guard is wrong, the Swiss Guard are a small force of mercenary, the British Guards regiments were very well trained infantry regiments who regarded themselves as an elite. They serve in the front line and have done so with distinction for centuries.

Comparison to the SS is interesting, in terms of size well, the Guards expanded massively during the war but they are nothing like the SS in nature and I'm fairly sure they were smaller. If however you are going to try to argue that the Guards (and other 'democratic forces') would run away when the stuff hits the fan, I cannot help but ask you to back this up. After all, it was these 'democratic forces' that defeated Germany and the elite political warriors who surrendered in their thousands. If it came to a battle for London I'm fairly sure the Germans would have encountered a british army that fought tenaciously for every inch of ground!

As with so many what-ifs there is no point in laying out a scenario, in combat the Guards regiments proved very capable, even against the SS.