262 breaking sound barrier

In "Hitler's Jet," it is stated:

"Officially, on 14 October 1947 Captain Charles F. Yeager, USAAF, was the first man through the sound barrier flying the Bell X-1 but there have been claims, apparently not much disputed by the Americans, that a Luftwaffe-flown Me 262 achieved the distinction first. The statement by Kurt Wendel appears to be a non-controversial way of making the claim immediately postwar. A computer-based analysis carried out in 1999 at the Munich Technical University showed that the Me 262 could exceed Mach 1. The criteria involved commencing a descent with a maximum dive angle of between 40 to 70 degrees from above 30,000 feet."

So, maybe Hans Guido Mutke did it after all!
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0198c.shtml

 

The Bell X-1 was the first plane able to break the sound barrier in *horizontal* flight. Even Big Boy P-47 (who else ) was able to go transsonic in a dive (Juggy Power!). I think the Hawker Tempest was able, as well.

As for the Schwalbe, in a dive quite possible, horizontal I don't know!

 

Very unlikely. First, there is the problem of the aerodynamics of the aircraft itself. It is very difficult for an aircraft not designed to the area rule to achieve supersonic speeds. The 262 was not even close to this having its widest cross section at the wings and fuselage joint about half way down the length of the aircraft. This would have resulted in blanking the small (by jet standards) rudder resulting in a loss of control directionally in a supersonic condition.
Second, with plain inlets on the engines it is very likely that both would have suffered compressor stalls as a pressure front from the supersonic shock wave built up in front of them.
The possibility that a Me 163 might have is far more likely.

 

Juggy & Tempest trannsonic eh? never heard that. got a site?

 

The nearest a prop plane has ever got to breaking the sound barrier is a Spitfire flown by a RAF test pilot, reaching 0.89 mach, its impossible for a prop plane to go trannsonic.

 

Not true. It is possible for a propeller driven aircraft to break the sound barrier....weird, but possible!

Weirdness of the 50's

 

According to the link, it 'never approached supersonic speed'. Am I missing something here ?

 

No, I read that in one of those funny things called books. Can't tell you which one for now, got cases and cases of 'em

 

My understanding is that the confusion as to whether the Germans did or did not break the sound barrier is found in the accuracy of their air speed indicators. I have heard they were wildly inaccurate at max speeds. A bit like the accuracy of the so called 'petrol guage' in my car. i.e what said Mach 1 on the dial was not in fact mach 1.

 

A very warm welcome to these forums, CQBDent ! Members from Australia always welcome here....

That must be some car you've got - Mach 1 ! I know you've got some quick cars down there, but.....



( Only kidding ! )

 

martin why pick on HRT (holden Dealer Team)

 

sorry sore point Fords are spending a large amount of Money trying to beat holdens (vauxauls)

 

to cqb Dent dont you know know the diference between a plane and a car

 

lol!...um yes ...although in NZ one can easily confuse a speed boat and a sports car. Have a Discovery channel video of 'the other 163 test pilot' talking about the Me163 which when doing a speed run approached Mach 1 and then went out of control ...the motor cut out and Dittmar regained control. Maybe 'mythbusters' needs to confirm or deny if the Me262 did break the sound barrier or not...certainly would be an entertaining analysis. I love the 262 and the comment that was made about it"looks fast standing still"

 

Sorry Greg - on the spur of the moment Holden was the only typically Australian marque I could think of !

CQBD - quite a few of us here on the forum are big 262 fans so any discussions as to its merits/demerits are most welcome

 

Messerschmitt also conducted a series of carefully controlled flight tests with the series production Me 262. In these dive tests, it was established that the Me 262 was out of control in a dive at Mach 0.86, and that higher Mach numbers would lead to a nose-down trim that could not be countered by the pilot. The resulting steepening of the dive would lead to even higher speeds and disintegration of the airframe due to excessive negative g loads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262

The HG series of Me 262 derivatives was estimated to be capable of reaching transonic Mach numbers in level flight, with the top speed of the HG III being projected as Mach 0.96 at 6 km altitude. Despite the necessity to gain experience in high-speed flight for the HG II and III designs, Messerschmitt undertook no attempts to exceed the Mach 0.86 limit for the Me 262.

The Me 262 HG III:

http://www.luft46.com/gmart/gm262.html

 

The Me-262 was noted for its inability to pull out of a high speed dive. Several inexperienced pilots lost their lives when going into a pursuit dive and the controls would fail to respond. This was a problem for any mach+ aircraft until they went with redesigned tails that moved as a single unit and not with flaps.

 

The first aircraft through the sound barrier in horizontal flight was the Lippisch P13 ramjet fighter. The US national archives have released details of this aircraft and its testing, but only to the end of 1944. There is declassified Polish material indicating that the Luftwaffe successfully tested the fighter to speeds of 2000 km/hr in 1945.

 

As far as I can tell from a number of various sources, the P13 never proceeded beyond windtunnel testing. Yes, the testing showed it could theoretically fly faster than sound. But, the problem in going from design to reality was not overcome before the war ended and no actual aircraft of this type flew. If anything, it probably would not have worked using the ramjet in any case. As post war testing and actual experience with ramjets has shown they work best in hypersonic regions well above mach 2, like mach 4+.
As for getting the P13 to speed to even try and ignite the ramjet, a rocket booster was to be used. This too never proceeded beyond design stage. So, exactly when did the P13 actually get built and flown?

 

Will provide tomorrow material on which statement was based.