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Help identifying this map

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by jashar, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. jashar

    jashar Member

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    My grandfather passed away last year and was a 26 year marine. He started in the Pacific at Guadalcanal and island hopped from there. I found map in his stuff that I attached a scan of. It was printed on very thin paper like tracing paper. Anyone have any idea what the map is of? I can't find any islands with that name but it references "H-Hour" at 15 March 1944.
     

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  2. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    I'm not sure about the island, but the physical map is an overlay. Here is a thread which shows how overlays were used. As for the island, it might be helpful to know with which Marine unit your grandfather served during WWII.
     
  3. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    It is possible, if not likely, that the outline on the overlay is not the actual island, but a particular feature or area. It also might be helpful if you could post a higher resolution scan.
     
  4. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    From the date I would guess it was a part of the mop-up operations from the Marshalls Campaign. The 22d Marines invaded a number of smaller atolls after Kwajalein was secured and that would fall in line with the date listed. Check for Wotho, Ujae and Lae Atolls and see if you can see an island within the atoll with a similar silhouette.

    TD-Tommy wrote:
    I'd have to disagree that it is only part of an island. The double lines coming off the islands north and west sides and the one pointing southeast slightly above center on the concave side, appear to be piers or jetties which would preclude the map from being part of a larger island.
     
  5. jashar

    jashar Member

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    He was in the 1st Marine Div. as a Machine gun crewman. His records say he was at: "Guadalcanal, B.S.I, Tarawa, British Gilbert Islands and Saipan, M.I."
     
  6. jashar

    jashar Member

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    This was scanned at the highest level my scanner does. I can put up a PDF format if that would help.
     
  7. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    He might have been in 2d Marines, a 2d Division Regiment attached to the 1st Marine Division for Guadalcanal. Or he might have been in the 1st Marine Division for Guadalcanal and later transferred to the 2d Marine Division (rather unlikely). The 2d MarDiv participated in the Gilberts Operation (Tarawa was part of this) and Saipan, the 1st Marine Division was involved in neither. The problem is the dates on your Map don't correspond to either the Gilberts or Marianas (Saipan-Guam-Tinian) operations.
     
  8. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    Sorry, I meant to type "though not likely" instead of "if not likely". I had noticed the parts of the tracings that appear to be jetties. There is also some lighter drawing and writing on it, which I can't quite make out.

    USMCPrice, do you have any thoughts about either the phrase "Annex B to Opperation (sic) Order - 44" or the phrase "Made by BN 2-3-8" ?
     
  9. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    No problem sir, I understand.

    The sepia toned drawings are of an airfield, roads, buildings, some gun emplacements, etc. The light blue markings and writing appear to me to be phase lines.

    I really don't know, but if I were to hazard a guess based upon the small amount of information I have. I'd guess it stands for Battalion S-2 3rd Bn 8th Marines. BN 2-3-8 is what it looks like to me.

    3/8 was at Guadalcanal, B.S.I. (British Solomon Islands), Tarawa and Saipan. They are not however a component of the 1st Marine Division (1st, 5th, 7th and 11th Marines (artillery)). However, as I stated earlier the 1st marine Division did not participate in the Gilberts (Tarawa) or Marianas (Saipan). These were all 2d Marine Division operations (component units 2d, 6th, 8th and 10th Marines (artillery)). As I also stated earlier The 2d Marines were attached to the 1st Marine Division for Guadalcanal for the initial landings because 7th Marines were defending Samoa. So the initial makeup for the division on D-Day 07 Aug 1942 was 1st, 2d, and 5th Marines. 7th Marines reinforced them on 18 September, but the 2d Marines were retained. 3d and 8th Marines relieved the First Marine Division, late in the battle, and along with the US Army conducted the mopping up operations.

    Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands was stricktly a 2d Marine Division Operation 2d, 6th and 8th Marines. It was in November 1943 so the dates don't match with the pictured map. The 1st Marine Division at that time was getting ready to land at Cape Gloucester on New Britian.

    Saipan involved the 2d and 4th Marine Divisions and 1st Provisional Marine Brigade (22d Marines) as Corps reserve.
     
  10. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    The OP's statement:
    does seem to fit with your interpretation of it as referring to the 3/8. Perhaps he was in the 1st Marine Division at some other point in his 26 year career.
     
  11. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    I'm still sticking with my original guess that the island is one of the Marshall's group, based upon the date.

    This is a quote from the history of the 22d Marines:

    "The 2d Division was scheduled to take Eniwetok atoll, 330 miles Northeast of Kwajalein in May 1944. Because we were not needed in the quick conquest of Roi Namur and Kwajalein, we were assigned the job of taking Eniwetok three months earlier.----in February 1944,"

    To place the above quote in context; Kwajalein and Eniwetok are both atolls in the Marshalls group. Roi-Namur was actually a pair of islands connected by a causeway (Roi and Namur) in the Kwajalien atoll and had the biggest airfield in the Marshalls group. The 4th Marine Division assaulted Roi and Namur and the US Army's 7th ID Kwajalein Island itself. Kwajalein atoll alone had 85 seperate islands, most however, were too small to be important, but had to be cleared of small Japanese detachments. Eniwetok was another atoll in the Marshalls group and was part of the same operation.
    Fortunately for the OP his map shows his island as supporting an airfield so the chances are good that it was big enough he can probably find it. The major atolls of the Marshalls group are Jaluit, Kwajalein, Wotho, Bikini, Eniwetok, Mili, Majuro, Maloelap, Wotje, and Likiep (there are something like 34 total atolls). His map is probably from an island on one of them, he needs to start by looking at maps of each atoll in the group. Several of the atolls were bypassed so there is a chance that his map is from an operation that was planned, but canked because of the changed operational situation. This is especially true since, if my guess is correct, his grandfather was in a 2d Marine Division unit. It had been planned for them to participate in the operation, but since it went smoother, faster and with less casualties than planned they were not employed and the following Marianas operation was moved up.

    To help understand how it can be hard to find the island by name, and what he needs to do to find his island, we can use the battle everyone calls Tarawa as an example. The Gilbert Islands were the group. Tarawa was the atoll, and Betio was the island in the atoll where the major action took place. Betio was also called Helen, it's code name and is listed as that on many contemporary maps or Bititu an indigenous name. Bairiki Island (how many people are familiar with that name?) was landed on by elements of the 6th Marines to cut off Japanese soldiers that were swimming there from Betio and I am sure there existed, at one time maps and overlays of it. The final actions in the Tarawa battle took place on Buariki Island on 27 November and the final Island, Naa secured on the 28th. All these islands would have had maps and overlays prepared during planning. Now everyone is probably familiar with this map of Betio and recognizes the silhouette. This would be comparable to the overlay the OP has.

    [​IMG]

    Heres a map of the Tarawa atoll, Betio Island, where the battle everyone knows as Tarawa took place is in the lower left hand corner. Look how many islands are in the atoll and each would have probably have a map overlay of it.

    [​IMG]

    Notice how even if it wasn't labelled you would recognize the silhouette. That's what the OP will probably needs to do. Find maps of different atolls and look for an island with a similar shape to his overlay.
     
  12. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    I only meant to address which division he probably served with during WWII. I tend to agree with your guess on the island.


    It had also occurred to me that the overlay might be from a cancelled operation. That would explain why the date doesn't fit with known operations of the 2nd Mar Div. I had considered that his grandfather might have acquired it post-WWII for some reason, but I think the former theory seems more plausible.

    BTW, great maps of Tarawa!
     
  13. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Yes sir, I understood and agreed with what you stated. Just further elaboration on my part. Sorry if it came across differently.

    I concurr.

    Thanks! I was trying to find something to illustrate what I was trying to say and they seemed to fit the bill. Hoped it would also illustrate why he probably can't find the island by name.
     
  14. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    There was a disagreement over which of the Marshall islands to attack first so it is possible it was a cancelled operation. But the date is for the Marshall islands
     
  15. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    That's what we were thinking. The 2d Division was originally supposed to take the Eniwetok Atoll. The Kwajalein Atoll was taken ahead of schedule and with less casualties than anticipated so the initial forces continued to secure the other atolls. There are beaucoup atolls (32 to 34 depending upon the source) in the group, so no telling which one it was. I've checked over maps for Kwajalien, Eniwetok, Wotje, Maloelap and Majuro and didn't see any islands with the proper silhouette. That still leaves a boatload of other possibilities. IIRC, the mopping up phase was from early March through mid-April '44, most completed by the end of march. This really doesn't narrow the search any though, because the map was probably from pre-planned operations and the timetable was so accelerated as to make identification of the particular landing by date unfeasable.
     
  16. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    If you have a digital camera you can get a larger pix. Just make sure the image is square in the viewfinder.
     

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