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1945: Schrägwaffen effectiveness

Discussion in 'Air War in Western Europe 1939 - 1945' started by Erich, Dec 19, 2007.

  1. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    thanks to my friend Rod who has doen an incredible amount of in-depth research into German LW claims and actual BC losses for the war. This to me is a very important piece of written evidence using Allied after action reports :

    Hello One & All,

    for those interested in a 'snapshot' of the effectiveness of various types of NJ attacks, following are statistics made from the RAF Bomber Command ORS logs of aircraft damaged during 1945.

    Damaged aircraft that returned to the UK were inspected by special damage assessment teams, who performed ballistics tests to establish the cause and types of damage that had been suffered.

    During 1945. Bomber Command had 96 aircraft that were sassessed as having been damaged solely by night fighters (another three were assessed as being damaged by 'light flak' and it is possible that one or more of these could've actually have been damaged by fighters).

    (i) Of the 96 aircraft, five were Mosquitoes.

    (ii) Of the 96 aircraft. 77 (80.2%) were damaged in conventional attacks; 12 (12.5%) in Schräge Musik attacks, and; for 7 (7.3%), the cause and extent of damage was not assessed and/or was not noted in the logs.

    (iii) in the 77 conventional attacks: (note including some aircraft that were damaged by more than one calibre of ammunition):
    (a.) one instance resulted in damage by 7.62mm ammunition (total 8 hits; highest number of hits 8; average number of hits 8. no aircraft Cat B damage or higher)
    (b.) 12 instances resulted in damage by 13mm ammunition (total 76 hits; highest number of hits 20; average number of hits 6.3. 1 out of 12 aircraft Cat B damage or higher)
    (c.) 64 instances resulted in damage by 20mm ammunition (total 338 hits; highest number of hits 19; average number of hits 5.3. 5 out of 64 aircraft Cat B damage or higher)
    (d.) 5 instances resulted in damage by 30mm ammunition - 4 Mossies & 1 Lanc (total 6 hits; highest number of hits 2; average number of hits 1.2. 2 out of 4 aircraft Cat B damage or higher)

    (iv) in the 12 Schräge Musik attacks:
    (a.) one instance resulted in damage by 7.62mm ammunition (total 8 hits; highest number of hits 8; average number of hits 8)
    (b.) 12 instances resulted in damage by 20mm ammunition (total 59 hits; highest number of hits 16; average number of hits 4.9. 2 out of 12 instances resulted in Cat B damage or higher)
    (c.) one instance resulted in damage by 30mm ammunition (total 1 hit; highest number of hits 1; average number of hits 1)


    Note - Category B damage was damage beyond on-site (i.e. aerodrome) capabilities. A number of these aircraft were simply written off.

    Unfortunately, no reliable statistics can be produced that relate the percentage of damaged aircraft to the percentage of aircraft shot down by night fighters. obviously because no reliable data sets exist on the destroyed aircraft.

    As a very, very rough ball-park figure: 96 a/c damaged by night fighters, and around 457 were shot down by night fighters (this is not an exact figure. It is calculated by taking the total number of BC a/c lost on operations during 1945 (763) and deducting those known to have been lost "not by enemy action" (207) = 556. Assuming 17.8% of losses may have been shot down by Flak (this is based on available OKL figures for Jan-Mar 45 on the total number of night fighter claims and flak claims), then around 457 BC a/c may have been shot down by night fighters during 1945. Thus, this assumes that roughly 553 BC a/c were hit during night fighter attacks during 1945 - 17.4% of such attacks resulted only in damage, while 82.6% of such attacks resulted in the destruction of the aircraft. I haven't yet compiled figures, but during 1945 the number of BC aircraft hit during night fighter attacks in relation to the total number of night fighter attacks (many where the night fighter couldn't open fire) wasn't spectatularly high, or should I say, not as high as Schnaufer made out in his post-war interogation (I'm takjing about the average Nachtjagd success rate in engagements, not specifically Schnaufer's).

    Cheers
     
  2. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    this is great use of important documents. Were reports such as these used to come up with countermeasures against the most effective attacks by the NJ?
     
  3. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    In this case I would say no, the after action reports through 1945 were build up as a comparison that Rod did up himself with a great host of important documentation most of which is housed at KEW in London, England via the appropriate AIR numerations housed there. During the war BC still did not know for certain that NF attacks were coming up from the rear and below though tail gunners did see them and hopeful in time to have the pilot do evasive manuevers to escape. From my reading and interviews it was still thought that many of the attacks from the bottom had been from ground based Flak.

    PzJgr, through my interviews with LW NF crews it was found in 1945 that some 75 % used the weapons on a consistent basis as in most of the ops the BC bombers still had not been fitted with a belly gun/turret so the ease, and that is not really a good word, the most effective means of attack was to strike from down way low, climb up and get underneath to a point under one wing or the other and fire between the engines or at the wing root using the displayed overhead in the cockpit special set up sight.
     
  4. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    This was called the ''dead angle''. The Nightfighter would either shoot directly in the bomb bay which would be a very vulnerable area ( especially on the outward flight) , or the fuel tanks and the engines if not both. Experienced fighters would need only one single burst with the Schräge waffen. Many bomber crews have been shot down without even knowing where the fire came from. Sometimes fighters would take a considerable amount of time to get the right shooting angle without being detected. If they were detected they would skip the adjusting period. I was surpsised when interviewing Lw pilots how often they actually shot the aircrafts without even using the Fug Radar technology and counte don experience and moonlight for example. the 82.6% figure for Schräge Musik is an average. I know some pilots who got a 100% score with their Schräge Musik (when they actually used it, because on some flights they of course didn't)
     
  5. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    and Skipper some preferred not to use the weapon system for fear of the falling debris if not the bomber onto them, it happened at times anyway...........yikes !

    prefferred to hit between the engines and allow the fire(s) to spread to the fuel tanks, into the bomb bay could be trouble even if the BC bomber was heading home bound.

    In 45 the typical FuG 220d set was jammed so the FuG 350Z Naxos was used, reason for a fourth crew member and an extra pair of eyes to witness a claim as well as a lookout for Mossie NF's. Even when FuG 218 was jammed the FuG 350Z became the standard focus point and although the fuG 220d was rendered inoperative at many times the Bordfünker would determine the worst area of window interference/dropping on his small scope and lead the pilot into that direction and into a favorable firing position
     
  6. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    an the result when a German LW crew was "asleep at the wheel".

    5./6. March 1945 loss of 2 Ju 88G-6's shot down by this Mossie XXX crew, one of them a very important LW night ace, Oberstleutnant Walter Borchers who had just claimed an BC Lancaster this same night. Both LW Junkers were from NJG 5.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    I would be interested to see more data back through say the beginning of 1944 like that above for 45. I bet I could extrapolate a "shoot down" point from it. If there was data on exactly what damage was done (eg., structurial, flight systems, engines, fuel, etc) I could even do more with that. Might make for interesting results.
     
  8. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    hang in there Terry as a couple of mistakes need to be alleviated out of my first posting.......you may see 44 come up soon but understand if you do not it is going to take months to put all the applications together as the documents are vast in the holder possession
     
  9. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    more comments and then some .......

    Since, I've gone and put my money where my mouth is, I've gone through and re-checked my figures (based on an older spreadsheet that I made up) against a master register that I have (the latter has been vigourly checked and re-checked). This has resulted in a number of corrections to the figures above.

    The listing of '7.62' (instead of 7.92) was my mistake. The Bomber Command Operational Research Section actually used codes to denote calibre: b = 7.92, c = 13. d = 20mm, e = 30 mm, and, for example, y = 0.303 inch. Thus the mistake was my own error in transcription. One of the methods used by the damage assessment teams in determining the calibre of the strikes was analysis of shell fragments, especially any the remaining colour coding and/or markings left on the fragments. A number of damaged aircraft that were though (by the crews) to have been attacked by night fighters, were found to have been hit by 0.303 inch, or (rarely) 0.50 inch ammunition (I know that there was at least one occasion in 1945 where two Lancaster/Halifax crews each submitted a claim for a night fighter destroyed/damaged ('can't remember which), where the combats had taken place in the same location and at the same time. Subsequent investigation revealed that both aircraft suffered hits by 0.303 inch ammo, thus, they had, in fact, fired upon each other). Obviously these instances are not included in the stats.

    Just to clarify, in all 14 S.M. attacks that resulted in damage, 20 mm hits were scored, while on 2 out of the 14 occasions strikes by ammunition of other calibres also occurred. It is also important to state that some of the damaged aircraft may have been attacked more than once, and, on occasion, by more than one night fighter.

    In the attacks that resulted in damage solely by 13 mm ammunition, it is possible that some these were as a result of an S.M.-like attack where the main armament either wasn't fired or did not hit, but the rear-ward MG 131 defensive armament did hit. This is definitely true on one occasion. In at least one instance where 20 mm and 7.92 mm hits occured, the Lancaster was attacked from below and, as the night fighter passed underneath and in front of the bomber, the rear-ward armament was fired by the night fighter, resulting in the 7.92 mm hits.

    there will be more soon ........ E ♫




     
  10. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    In the 12 Schräge Musik attacks, he lists one hit by 30 mm. I did not know 30 mm was used in the jazz music set up. I thought only the Me-262 and the Power Egg used the 30 mm and then just foward firing only.

    Is this a mistake by the RAF or do I need to study more ? :p

    Pretty neat story on the Lancaster and Halifax trying to shoot each other down. Those crews needed to study more too. :D
     
  11. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    TA the ID at night was pretty tough by any means for both sides, there are several reports of ME 163's reported which is false, a rocket or jet powered He 219 which is false, Me 262's found in September and October 44 when they actually did not fly on ops till December 44...........on it goes.

    3cm yes in the SM installation from the He 210A-0 and A-2 variants
     
  12. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    You had me going for a min. I was thinking He-210A ?? Run get out my books !!! :p
     
  13. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    TA not all Uhu were fitted with SM nor tail warning radar. usual forward fit was four 2cm weapons, the wing roots and two in the belly tray. all the talk of the Uhu through the war wearing all the heavy 2cm and 3cm had changed within the crews of the unit : I./NJG 1. anyway I am getting OT
     
  14. mhuxt

    mhuxt Member

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    Hiyas E:

    Did Rod say there were any details available on the individual aircraft involved? I know Leland's fighter Mossie sustained 2x30mms on 3/4 April '45, and I've a tale upstairs of another nocturnal Mossie with a 30mm hole through the tailplane. Would be interested in the others.

    Could make for a neat little search through the National Archives new Combat Report / Encounter listing:

    The National Archives | DocumentsOnline | WW2 air combat reports

    I still owe you for 20/21.

    My daughter insists we include :trouble: and :eek:

    Cheers,

    Mark
     
  15. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Interesting. It seems logical that schräge waffens were switched to 30mm whenever possible. Erich, were 3cm used on the Ju-88 too or was it 2cm? I figure the G6 would be a good candidate.
     
  16. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Mark, Skipper, no Rod did not say just waht a/c but am sure he has speciifcs stored away in his huge data bank. he is going to release some of his private data for costs afte Theo big book is released in spring 08.
    Skip as far as I know the 3cm twins were experimented with on the Ju 88G-6, but the pilots did favor the single or twin 2cm over the harder hitting 3cm. the schragwaffen in the 3cm blew chunks right of the bombers so it would also be of major concern of this debris falling down on the LW nf with the big guns. As far as I am aware when used as standard equipment the Uhu was the only one fitted with zwei 3cm
     
  17. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Thanks for the fast answer Erich. So basically the 3cm on the JU-88 G6 was only experimental. BTW make sure to make me aware of the release of TB's book this spring.
     
  18. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    the 3cm was so powerful the Kommando Welter even thought of removing them from the nose of their Me 262's, when chasing Mossies. when the Mossie was hit by the 30mm's usually there was not a fire but more often than not the a/c just fell apart-disintigrated.
    you may hear of T.B.s book out before I do Skipper, released in England through Red Kite publishing.

    another note along with Weihnacht greets this morn to me. this was about the use of the rear mg 131 13mm mg from Peter :

    Hello again,

    I really don't remember the type of the rounds for the rear gun. This third man always changed during our missions, mostly mechanics they wanted to have the iron cross 2nd class (to show it at home). They got it automatically when the pilot was successful. ( 1 claim 2nd class, 4 claims 1. class, 15 claims Goldene Kreuz, 25 claims Ritterkreuz if not dead).
    During my more than 100 missions (don't know the exact numbers because Flugbuch lost when POW) my rear gunner never used the rear gun. I preferred to look to the rear myself or curved away into the dark when there was a danger from the rear.
     
  19. mhuxt

    mhuxt Member

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    Thanks for that Erich. Rod really is doing some marvellous primary-source research. How on earth does he manage it - I thought he was in New Zealand?

    Happy Xmas to all.
     
  20. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Well, great info this is indeed. Please tell Rod we appreciate his contribution.
     

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