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Best fighter of ww2?

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by Peppy, Nov 29, 2000.

  1. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Carl :

    Can you imagine if there would of been an equal force of Ta 152's and Me 262's/ provided the engine and fuel system problems were worked out........on equal with P-51's ?
    Could of been interesting but forunately for the US fighter and bomber crews this did not work out. Best fighter.......there isn't one !!!!!!!!!
    Speculate all you want. If you interview any Allied or Axis airman, 95% will say that the best fighter is the one they flew.

    ;)

    E
     
  2. Erich Hartmann

    Erich Hartmann Member

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    Couldn't agree more. One can only speculate in the end, especially aided by the fact that such an air battle between Ta-152s/Me-262s vs P-51s/P-47s (imagine such a slugfest!) never took place. Almost ALL pilots I've talked to rant and rave about how their plane was such a performer.


    The Brewster Buffalo............was that supposed to be a joke??????
     
  3. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
    For Ron and Popeyesays:

    Ron, the problems a Corsair had were: Not as manoverable as the Zeke, and the Messerschmitt and FW-190s both were both very manoverable. The Corsair poliot would have to learn all the weaknesses of the aircraft, and in the process, lose a good many pilots.

    Another problem a Corsair had that took time to over come was, that its nose was a bit too long. Ultimately, it would depend on the pilots flying against each-other. By all means though, the Corsair is one of my favorite ww2 aircraft. It like the Brewster Buffalo, were tough birds.

    For Popeyesays: The Brewster Buffalo was a good reliable bird, but was slow. I think that that was its only bad drawback.

    Also just think about all the experiance the German pilots already had. I think they would have given those Allied pilots alot more hell, had we had the Corsairs and Buffalos to fight with, instead of the sleek P-51 Mustang (my all-time favorite ww2 bird) and the P-38 Lightning.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We're kind of getting to the point. A pilot had little choice in what he got to fly. A nation developed an aircraft and put it into action. Pilots really got NO choice in what they flew. They had to make do . . .
    That's the point - an analysis of "What was the best fighter in the war?" b oild down to a tempest in a teapot.

    The Finns had less than 60 Brewster 239 and 339 (export versions of the F2A) with those they shot down 494 Soviet aircraft including Soviet Spitfires, P 38's, P47,s and more. IT was a "dog" in American hands. The British got better service from the type than most people think.
    It was not the "best" fighter but it was what men flew and fought and died in. They rarely got to choose it. They made do, did their best, persevered and lived and died because that is what they were given to fly.
     
  4. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    In reply to an earlier post about the pilot Rex Barber, who shot down Yamamoto......
    I have just learned that Rex passed away this morning........another vet gone !

    E :mad:
     
  5. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    For Erich on Rex, Verdammt :( :( I had not known that. Also, another KC Recipient is gone. He wasnt on my list of addresses, but a shame none the less. I have him posted in my little but growing KCers updates area in ww2 Today forums. :( :(

    I also agree, that if Jerry had had the mes and that other aircraft and in the numbers we had Mustangs and other fighters, they would have flammed many many more of our guys-unfortunately.

    On the Brewster Buffalo deal: My old scoutmaster was a Brewster Buffalo pilot in the early war years in the US Navy in ww2. He liked the aircraft because it was reliable, even if somewhat outdated.
     
  6. sopwith

    sopwith Member

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    C.Evans, the Corsair was less maneuverable than the Zeke, but so were your vaunted Lightning and Mustang. Anyway, the Corsair's "inferior" maneuverability never seemed to stop it from shooting down large numbers of more maneuverable Japanese planes. Maneuverability isn't everything in a fighter.

    As for your 109's and FW 190's being "very maneuverable", define "maneuverable". I never read about the 190 being having a fabulous turn rate, and while the 109 was better, it was not tremendous, either. Both the 190 and the Corsair were known for their high rates of roll.

    109 was rather lightly armed, too. 2 13mm mgs and 1 20 or 30mm
    cannon in the later models, I think, unless one added gunpacks which reduced performance/maneuverability. (Some good points of 109 were rate of climb and acceleration).

    As for the P-51 being "sleek" : looks don't make a plane good, they just make it visually appealing. (However, I believe the Mustang was one of the best fighters for doing most things well - decent firepower, maneuverability, speed, etc - coupled with the long range to get it where it needed to be.
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
    For Ron and Popeyesays:

    Ron, the problems a Corsair had were: Not as manoverable as the Zeke, and the Messerschmitt and FW-190s both were both very manoverable. The Corsair poliot would have to learn all the weaknesses of the aircraft, and in the process, lose a good many pilots.

    Another problem a Corsair had that took time to over come was, that its nose was a bit too long. Ultimately, it would depend on the pilots flying against each-other. By all means though, the Corsair is one of my favorite ww2 aircraft. It like the Brewster Buffalo, were tough birds.

    For Popeyesays: The Brewster Buffalo was a good reliable bird, but was slow. I think that that was its only bad drawback.

    Also just think about all the experiance the German pilots already had. I think they would have given those Allied pilots alot more hell, had we had the Corsairs and Buffalos to fight with, instead of the sleek P-51 Mustang (my all-time favorite ww2 bird) and the P-38 Lightning.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  7. Smoke286

    Smoke286 Member

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    Sopwith, I have long been of the opinion that
    rather then being a very good aircraft the Mustang was a plane with few weaknesses, at least once the D model came along, earlier varients were distinctly underarmed
     
  8. Erich Hartmann

    Erich Hartmann Member

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    I think its safe to say that we're ALL referring to the "D" model of the Mustang in this topic.
     
  9. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Thanks for pointing out the flaws, but when referring to sleek, I meant not just in looks, but for its combat performances. The Mustand D model, was the best of the series and performed exceptionally well.

    I happen to know a US pilot, who flew the P-51-D in ww2. He was shot down in Germany near the wars ending. From my small talks with him on the subject, I learned that it was the best model and he went into details that I dont have handy to quote.

    True, the FW-190 and Corsair might have handled somewhat the same, but you have to consider an aircrafts combat performances when making a choice of which was the best aircraft.

    To use ww1 for instance and you log on name Sopwith-for Sopwith Camel.

    The Sopwith Camel, was about as good as things got, in ww1. The Germans version of that plane (for combat performance) was the Fokker fighter. Not the early Triplanes but the other ones.

    I dont know for sure but, I think those were the two best airplanes in ww1. Now back to ww2.

    The Corsair was a bit more cumbersome due to weight and design. I firmly believe the FW-190 and the MEs would have wiped the skies clear of these aircraft, no disrespect intended for the pilots who flwe them of course.

    I cant quote very accurate figures as I dont have that info handy but, during the entire war, the Germans shot down over 40,000 allied aircraft--not an unimpressive tally, if I say so and glad it wasnt higher that that.

    True, the Corsairs did flame many a Zeke, buit thats also due to the quality of pilots and their training. Many pilots came from the 3 Flying Tigers squadrons, who had been in China for a time before we entered the war.

    David Lee "Tex" Hill, one of the Squadron leaders, I think the 2nd squadron, lives in San Antonio Texas. If you wish, you can get his phone number and call him and he will talk to anyone interested. I think he commanded the 2nd squadron called: "The Pandabears"

    1st and 3rd squadrons were called: "The Adam and Eves" and I forget what the other was named, but it had Dick Rossi in ite squadron as either its commander or co-commander.
     
  10. sopwith

    sopwith Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
    "Thanks for pointing out the flaws, but when referring to sleek, I meant not just in looks, but for its combat performances. The Mustand D model, was the best of the series and performed exceptionally well."

    Then I guess "sleek" is not the right word.

    "I happen to know a US pilot, who flew the P-51-D in ww2. He was shot down in Germany near the wars ending. From my small talks with him on the subject, I learned that it was the best model and he went into details that I dont have handy to quote."

    O.K. no one is really arguing that.

    "True, the FW-190 and Corsair might have handled somewhat the same, but you have to consider an aircrafts combat performances when making a choice of which was the best aircraft."

    Well, the Corsair wasted it's opposition. A 12 to one victory vs. combat loss claims ratio, IIRC. (Though we all know claims may not be all that accurate). Does this give ANY indication how it might perform in battle?

    "To use ww1 for instance and you log on name Sopwith-for Sopwith Camel."

    Or for Sopwith Pup, regarded as one of the nicest WW1 aircraft to fly, and a decent fighter in it's time, too.

    "The Sopwith Camel, was about as good as things got, in ww1. The Germans version of that plane (for combat performance) was the Fokker fighter. Not the early Triplanes but the other ones."

    The Sopwith Camel has gained much of it's reputation due to one pilot - Snoopy. A good argument can be made that the SE5A was a better all around fighter.

    "I dont know for sure but, I think those were the two best airplanes in ww1. Now back to ww2."

    O.K. Don't know why you left it.

    "The Corsair was a bit more cumbersome due to weight and design."

    Says who? Anyway 2000 h.p. might help. T-bolt was heavier.

    "I firmly believe the FW-190 and the MEs would have wiped the skies clear of these aircraft, no disrespect intended for the pilots who flwe them of course."

    You never really say why.

    "I cant quote very accurate figures as I dont have that info handy but, during the entire war, the Germans shot down over 40,000 allied aircraft--not an unimpressive tally, if I say so and glad it wasnt higher that that."

    But what does that have to say about a comparison of Corsairs and German fighters?

    "True, the Corsairs did flame many a Zeke, buit thats also due to the quality of pilots and their training."

    Pilot Quality is one of THE main factors in combat success.

    "Many pilots came from the 3 Flying Tigers squadrons, who had been in China for a time before we entered the war."

    The Flying Tigers did not enter action until after Pearl Harbor. (I know, John Wayne says different). Besides, even if you have 3 squadrns of experienced pilots, who ALL leave the Flying Tigers and start flying Corsairs, how many pilots is that, really? Less than 100, I would guess. I think there were more combat experienced Japanese pilots facing the Flying Tigers when they started. What about THEIR experience? And can you name any of the "many" AVG pilots besides Boyington who flew Corsairs?

    "David Lee "Tex" Hill, one of the Squadron leaders, I think the 2nd squadron, lives in San Antonio Texas. If you wish, you can get his phone number and call him and he will talk to anyone interested. I think he commanded the 2nd squadron called: "The Pandabears"

    1st and 3rd squadrons were called: "The Adam and Eves" and I forget what the other was named, but it had Dick Rossi in ite squadron as either its commander or co-commander."
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Interesting, but not really relevant to the current discussion, is it?

    I ask you, WHY would 109s and 190s wipe the skies clear of Corsairs? They didn't do it to Mustangs, Lightnings, or Thunderbolts. What makes the Corsair such a ready victim?

    [ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: sopwith ]

    [ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: sopwith ]
     
  11. Madcap7

    Madcap7 Member

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    In my oppinion the best Allied fighter was the North American P-51D Mustang and the best Axis fighter was the Focke-Wulf Ta 152H.

    I have a question:

    What do you all think about aircraft that entered service but only in limited numbers? Can they be included? Obviousely kill ratios would not/could not be counted but the aircraft's performance data could be submitted, if so I would like to submit the Dornier Do 335 Pfeil, by far the best fighter built that saw service during World War II, far better than the P-51D and Ta 152, only jets surpass it in terms of speed but these early jets were of limited value due to their troublesome engines (Me 262) and limited numbers in service (allied jets)
     
  12. Chris Ray

    Chris Ray Member

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    Hey Snefru (Oh builder of pyramids)

    Wot about the Spitfire? In terms of fighter aircraft, one of the great icons of the war.

    Chris Ray
     
  13. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Madcap:

    What documentation do you have that the Do 335 ever took on operational missions ? What unit(s) flew the machine ?

    Thank you,

    E
     
  14. Smoke286

    Smoke286 Member

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    Wasnt the Ta 152 designed as a high altitude air superiority fighter. I remember reading somewhere that its performance at low to middle altitudes left a lot to be desired
     
  15. Madcap7

    Madcap7 Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erich Brown:
    Madcap:

    What documentation do you have that the Do 335 ever took on operational missions ? What unit(s) flew the machine ?

    Thank you,

    E
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Dornier Do 335A-0 Erprobungskommando 335 Oberpfaffenhoffen May 1945

    The Do 335A-0 pre-production aircraft were used by Erprobungskommando 335 for service evaluation.
     
  16. Madcap7

    Madcap7 Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Billy Bones:
    Wasnt the Ta 152 designed as a high altitude air superiority fighter. I remember reading somewhere that its performance at low to middle altitudes left a lot to be desired<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeah, but the Germans used specialised fighters for different roles so it didn't matter.
     
  17. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    So in essence the Do 335 did not ever see operational service. Only testing. That sounds about right.

    As to the Ta 152, I have many references as well as service flight log buch copies from JG 301 flugzeugführer. The Ta was never flown as a high altitude fighter. It's service record shows that it was only flown at medium altitudes against the P-47's and especially Soviet a/c.
    It would of been interesting to see how it would have faired with the P-51 at the 30,000 foot level and of course it's ceiling where the P-51 couldn't touch it. It truly was the superior piston enigne a/c of the Luftwaffe. But as always, way too late. There will be a wonderful book on JG 301 coming hopefully next year through Eagle editions and pilot Willi Reschke will be updating his book hopefully over the next 2 years.

    E
     
  18. Madcap7

    Madcap7 Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erich Brown:
    As to the Ta 152, I have many references as well as service flight log buch copies from JG 301 flugzeugführer. The Ta was never flown as a high altitude fighter. It's service record shows that it was only flown at medium altitudes against the P-47's and especially Soviet a/c.
    It would of been interesting to see how it would have faired with the P-51 at the 30,000 foot level and of course it's ceiling where the P-51 couldn't touch it. It truly was the superior piston enigne a/c of the Luftwaffe. But as always, way too late. There will be a wonderful book on JG 301 coming hopefully next year through Eagle editions and pilot Willi Reschke will be updating his book hopefully over the next 2 years.

    E
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Why wasn't the Ta flown as a high-altitude fighter. You are refering to the Ta 152H-1?
     
  19. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Madcap :

    I would suggest you pick up Willi Reschke's JG 301/302 buch and Monogram's Ta 152 book and finally the Ta 152 by Dietmar Hermann via Schiffer Publications.

    the ta was designated a high altitude interceptor but because of the fighting conditions/chaos towards the end of the war. III./JG 301 and finally the Geschwader stab of JG 301 were not flying against high altitude models of the US P-51. JG 301 was involved in the final battles for Berlin and were taking on Soviet Yaks and Migs and the occasional P-47 that strayed into Soviet so-called controlled airspace. Short of fuel was the primary concern and even the Ta overall due to mechanical problems. There were plenty of pilots for the H-1 and H-O modles and even the talk of trying to get the some C-series a/c from the factory armed and ready. But again the movements of the JG 301 unit prevented this. I am sure more details will come which I cannot divulge as this will be covered in Willi's new book and Jerry Crandall's long anticipated work.

    E
     
  20. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Erich darn it, remind me to forward you an email with two photos that Joerg Dietsche sent me of his RKT dad will you? Unlsee you already have them?

    One is him with some Luftwaffe personnel next to a fighter, the second is of him as a POW in England.
     

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