Best French bomber of the war?

That LN 401 has the wildest looking tail unit I've ever seen. And the Vought aircraft appears to be a version of the good old Vindicator, known to those who flew it in US service as the "Vibrator" and "Wind Indicator", which should give you some idea of how well it flew.

 

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Well, in the spring of 1940 the Armée de l'Air's bomber force was in such a bad state that they were ready to use everything capable of flying and carrying bombs....

 

Well, in the spring of 1940 the Armée de l'Air's bomber force was in such a bad state that they were ready to use everything capable of flying and carrying bombs....[/quote]

"Ready"? "Desperate" would seem to be the more appropriate term here.

 

French bomber? Best French bomber

Maybe SE100?

http://www.legionstratega.org/Zbrojowni ... /se100.htm


BJ

 

Wasn't the SE 100 intended to be a heavy figther rather than a bomber?

 

You're right! :lol:
BJ

 

If france ever got a bomber in the air in 1940 it would be pounced on in a matter of minutes and the french where like the britsh bug with few armement and a great bomb load

 

Hello,

The French air force in May/June 1940 was largely inferior to the German one, in numbers and quality, especially the bomber fleet which was really small in comparison.

Operational frontline aircrafts on 10th May 1940 on the western front :
France : 879
UK : 384 (total of 416 : 100 fighter (Hurricane + Gladiator) and 316 attack/bomber (Fairey Battle + Blenheim)
Belgium : 118
Netherlands : 72
Germany : 2589

The French air force had some 1900 aircrafts, of which only about 1,400 frontline aircrafts available (650 fighters, 240 bombers and 490 reconnaissance and observation). It was conceived as a defensive arm, in cooperation with / attached to the ground troops. It was therefore much dispersed and it explains the importance of the reconnaissance fleet working for the ground troops. At the time of the German attack the French air force was just modernizing and reorganizing.
There were only 36 Dewoitine D520 fighters in May 1940, the others were Morane-Saulnier 406, Curtiss H75, Bloch 151, Bloch 152 and Potez 631 fighters. Only 400 fighters were operational on 10th May 1940.
Only 120 of the bomber/assault aircrafts were modern ones (10 Amiot 354, 55 Lioré et Olivier 451, 45 Bréguet 691 or 693, 10 Potez 633) with 85 being operational. The others were older ones : 75 Bloch 200 or 210, 10 Farman 221 or 222 and 35 Amiot 143 with about 100 considered operational.
From the 490 reconnaissance aircrafts only 370 are really operational and rather modern ones : Bloch 174, Potez 637 and Potez 63/11. Older Mureaux 115 and 117 were also still in use.
Great Britain sent 416 aircrafts in France and kept about 800 aircrafts in Great Britain but all the allied planes available (1340 French + 416 British + about 190 for Belgium and the Netherlands = 1946) was still inferior to the about 3,000 / 3,500 German aircrafts effectively used during the 1940 western campaign. Nevertheless the RAF was also active from Great Britain, especially during the battle of Dunkirk. At the beginning of the German attack mostly all the Dutch and Belgian aviation are destroyed on the ground as well as 232 French aircrafts.

The German air force was conceived as an offensive arm with very numerous fighters and a powerful tactical bombardment/attack fleet to support the ground troops like aerial artillery. They had 1,264 fighters (1016 single-seat fighters like the Me109 and Me110), 1,120 bombers (He111, Do17, Ju88), 342 Ju87 dive bombers concentrated in the VIII. Fliegerkorps for close air support, 42 Hs123 specialized in close air support, about 700 observation and reconnaissance planes (Fi156, Hs126, Do17, He111 and Ju88) and about 450 transport planes for a total of about 3900 aircrafts. The Germans had a powerful fighters fleet, which combined with a very powerful mobile AA artillery covering the advancing troops was decisive to gain the air superiority. More of the 892 destroyed French aircrafts were shot down by the AA guns than by the German fighters. On 13th May 1940, the Luftwaffe was able for the first time of history to concentrate about 1500 bombers and attack planes over the small area of Sedan were only weak French divisions were defending an overstretched front. Nevertheless, from 10th to 18th May 1940, 179 German aircrafts had been shot down over the Meuse River area.

According to Karl Heinz Frieser, the Luftwaffe lost 1236 planes (about 525 bombers, 125 Ju87, 275 transports, 235 Me109 and 75 Me110) + 323 damaged ones during the western campaign. In his book from 1990, Jean-Gisclon studied the French fighter units. He indicates that the Germans lost between 10th May and 25th June a total of 1471 destroyed and 675 damaged aircrafts, these numbers are higher than the German ones. The German human losses in the Luftwaffe indicated in this book are 1,355 KIAs, 1,226 WIAs and 715 POWs. Often it is said that the French Air Force fighters destroyed about 800 aircrafts but modern studies indicate that this number is rather 500-600 (actually the fighter groups claim 996 victories, of those 733 "confirmed" in air combat. This last number is too high because several pilots share the same victory. The bomber / reconnaissance aircrafts defensive fire and the anti-aircraft fire from the ground are on their side estimated to be responsible for the loss of 200-300 more aircrafts. To these 700-900 lost aircrafts you can add those destroyed by the RAF in France and for example 250-300 transport aircrafts were lost in the Netherlands and in Belgium during the airborne operations. The German aircrafts shot down were later missing above London.

The main French fighters were Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Bloch MB.151/152, Curtiss H-75, Dewoitine D.520 and twin-engine Potez 631. Except the few Dewoitine D.520 the other aircrafts were inferior to the last version of the Me.109 but the French fighters scored nevertheless rather well. The Curtiss H-75 got the most air victories. France lost 892 aircrafts, although only 306 were lost in air to air combat which gives a positive ratio to the French fighters against the German aircrafts. Many aircrafts were lost due to the very dense Flak. The French fighter units lost 204 KIAs, 188 WIAs and 31 POWs according to Jean Gisclon. Among the losses he lists 14 Czech and 9 Polish pilots or engineers. Lyon-Bron is the airbase of GC III/9 (commandant Viguier) with about 30 Bloch MB.152 but is also the airbase where the higher number of Polish pilots were trained and based at the beginning of their arrival.

Czech losses :
• caporal Krakora
• lieutenant Kral
• lieutenant Korok
• sous-lieutenant Mikolaseck
• lieutenant Novak
• capitaine Vasck
• lieutenant Hamsick
• sergent-chef Moravek
• lieutenant Bieberlé
• sergent Popelka
• sergent Hranicka
• sergent Kosnar
• sergent Kralik
• caporal Novak

Polish losses :
• lieutenant Bursztyn
• adjudant Zach
• commandant Virwisky
• sous-lieutenant Poniatowsky
• sous-lieutenant Dudwal
• lieutenant Dobrzinski
• lieutenant Obuchowski
• lieutenant Lachowicki
• caporal Ucheto

The Polish pilots (about 100 served at different times in 1940, some being active while other still training) are credited with 50 air victories, including 36 confirmed/sure ones (according to Jean Gisclon's book).
The Polish 1/145 had 4 KIA (1 KIA on 19th May and 3 KIA on 9th June) and 2 WIA and it is credited with 8 confirmed and 2 probable air victories. The last air victory involving Polish pilot was on 18th June when a patrol of 3 aircrafts from GC 1/1 led by the French adjudant-chef Delegay with 2 Polish pilots (capitaine Wezelik and sergent-chef Markiewicz) downed a He-111.

On 5th June 1940 was a very good day for the French air force with 66 German aircrafts destroyed for the cost of 10 pilots KIA, 9 WIA and 5 MIA. As a comparison, on 15th September 1940, during the battle of Britain, the RAF destroyed 56 German aircrafts and lost 25 fighters.

The French ace Edmond Marin-la-Meslée collected 20 victories (16 confirmed + 4 probable) in May/June 1940 with a Curtiss H75A. He was pilot in the GC I/5 which obtained 111 air victories (84 confirmed and 27 probable). The German ace Werner Mölder had been shot down over France and made prisoner like 714 other aircraft crew members during the battle (on 17th June France had still about 400-500 Luftwaffe soldiers kept prisoner).

On 15th June 1940, second-lieutenant Pierre Le Gloan (GC III/6) shot down 5 Italian aircrafts (4 Fiat CR.42 and 1 BR.20) in 40 minutes with his Dewoitine D-520 over Saint-Raphaël. Le Gloan was in formation with captain Assolant when they saw 12 Fiat CR.42. Le Gloan destroyed 2 CR.42 and Assoulant returned to base with his guns jammed. Alone, Le Gloan continued his patrol. Over Hyères Le Gloan attacked 3 CR.42 and destroyed one plane, he broke the combat when 8 other Italian aircrafts arrived. The airbase at Luc called him back because it was attacked by Italian planes. Le Gloan destroyed his fourth CR.42 and one BR.20 from the 172nd strategic reconnaissance Squadriglia. It was one of the very first pilots of WW2 to destroy 5 planes in one sortie.

The French Farman 222.2, 223.3 and 223.4 heavy bombers (a total of about 42 only available in May/June 1940) were really long range bombers and carried 4200 kg bombs (2x 500 kg and 16x 200 kg). Ugly and slow, this was typical of France’s pre-modernization air force of the mid 30's. This "advanced" version of the Farman 221/222 (222.2) had retractable gear, but showed little improvement over its predecessor. It did have long range and carried a large bomb load. First they dropped leaflets over Germany and Czechoslovakia but they were also the first allied planes to bomb Berlin (Siemens factory) and other cities (Rostock - Heinkel factories -, Hamburg, Münich and Köln). They also bombed rail-road nests in Aix-La-Chappelle, Maastricht, Flessingue and Middelburg in order to delay the Germans. After Italy declared war against France these bombers dropped leaflets over Roma and bombed fuel refinery in Porto Maghera and Livourne. Only one was lost during the Battle of France - and that was a flying accident. Vichy and the Luftwaffe used them as transports through 1944.

The Lioré & Olivier 451 was by most accounts, an excellent aircraft, though a bit short on defensive armament. Used badly for ground attack in small numbers without escort. This plane bombed Germany and Italy but France had so few bombers and very few attack planes that it didn't change the strategic outcome. Later used by Vichy in North Africa and Syria. Also used by the Germans.

A total of about 155 Amiot 351 and Amiot 354 have been available during May/June 1940, they carried about 2200 kg bombs (2x500 kg and 6x 200 kg). It was a very modern medium bomber (477 km/h) but the last version, the Amiot 354, arrived too late. Four of them were later used as transports by the Luftwaffe, including two with 1./KG200 (the special service Geschwader). Others were later used for the French air mail service. The engines were taken by Germany and used on the Me323 .

The Amiot 143M carried about 1200 kg bombs, 12 of these obsolete aircrafts were called to desperate daylight raids on the Sedan bridges !

The Bloch MB.200 and MB.210 carried up to about 1600 kg bombs (2x 500kg or 8x 200kg or 32x 50kg). There were also 24 in Rumania and 124 in the Czech Air Force.

The Potez 630 series in the French Air Force in 1939/1940 :
Potez 631 = heavy fighter and attack - equivalent to the Me110
Potez 633 = light bomber, this model has a bomb bay

Potez 631 armament :
2x 20mm HS404
4x 7.5mm MAC34
(4x 50 kg bombs for attack missions)
1-2x 7.5mm MAC34 for rear defense

Potez 633 armament :
1x 7.5mm MAC34
2x 100 kg bombs
4x 100 kg bombs or 8x 50 kg bombs (in the bombbay)
1-2x 7.5mm MAC34 for rear defense

The Potez 630 series is modern in 1938. The Czech AVIA company bought the licence to build a fighter version (Potez 636) but the German invasion ended the project. China bought 4 PO.631 and 5 PO.633 but they were seized by the French Army in Indochina (French colony composed of Annam, Cochinchina, Tonkin, Cambodia, Laos and a part of the Chinese territory that is called Kouang-Tcheou-Wan) before delivery. 3 of them have been used against the Japanese (in Lang Son) and Thai armies attacking Vichy forces in 1940 and 1941. Yugoslavia received 2 PO.630, no further deliveries because of the war and all the production was directed to the French Army. Switzerland used 1 PO.630 and 1 PO.632 (= PO.633 with Hispano engines), no further deliveries because of the war and all the production was directed to the French Army. Used until 1944 and equipped with a 2x 20mm Oerlikon FF/K guns extra pod. Greece ordered 24 PO.633 but only 10 could be delivered and saw action against Italian and Albanian forces. Rumania received 21 PO.633B2 used in the 74th and 75th bombing squadrons. They were used for bombing and long range recon missions. Used during Barbarossa, Odessa and Stalingrad for example and at least until 1943. The Luftwaffe used French booty PO.630s for training and reconnaissance missions.

The Bréguet Br.693/695 attack planes were very good (speed of 480 km/h) and sturdy, with excellent maintenance features (engine change in 80 minutes). The armament consisted in :
1x 20mm HS404
5x 7.5mm MAC (2 in the nose and 3 fixed and pointing aft and down used for strafing only)
1x 7.5mm MAC for rear defense
8x 50 kg bombs
The starboard side cannon and machineguns in the nose have a 0 to -15° elevation towards the ground for better aiming and strafing of ground target even if the aircraft is in level flying. It was first used in attacks with a 45° dive from 2,500 - 3,000 meters, with fighter cover. But the Morane-Saulnier 406 could generally not follow the assault aircrafts. As cover 900 meters.

The Loire Nieuport LN.401/411 dive bombers of the fleet air arm were also used against ground targets in the Netherlands (to support the French landings) but also desperately to try to stop the Panzerdivisionen in France. Even Morane-Saulnier 406 fighters were ordered to attack the Panzers with their 20mm gun.
The offensive armament of the LN.401/411 was composed of 1x20mm HS404, 2x7.5mm MAC and only 1 main weapon station location for the bomb load (1x 450 kg bomb = type P or 1x 225 kg bomb = type K or 1x 150 kg bomb = type I2 or 9x 15 kg bombs or 10x 10 kg bombs).

Best regards,

David

 

Also have a look at this article :
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... kland.html

Comments
This article is well written, and the case against inter-service rivalry is well stated. Several points are nonetheless completely wrong. The article states that the French did have enough aircraft in 1940 but that they lacked trained aircrew which according to the programmed training schedule was not going to come to fruition until early 1941.
In fact, they lacked both. The French did not have enough aircrafts. The thousands of aircraft counted in those "reserves" were either obsolete, non operational, or lacking key components (like armament). Look in my previous post for the number of operational planes. The French were in the process of having enough modern aircraft (barely) in June-July when this was disrupted by the German invasion.
Simply put, regarding aircraft counts the article is comparing apples and oranges like counting all the obsolete planes which the French kept to police colonies or as trainers but only counting modern British or German planes (though for the latter they only had more modern planes as their air rearmament took place later).
Saying that the French air force refrained from adding radios / propellers / armament to planes coming out of the factory so as to keep the production figures down is simply false. The technical services did their best, they labored under severe shortages. One can certainly make a case that the whole production system wasn't as effective as it should have been, but not the case being argued in that article. However, most of the article is to the point, which is that the whole thing was a mess and inter-service rivalry really didn't help.

Regards,

David