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Bomber Command Losses

Discussion in 'Air War in Western Europe 1939 - 1945' started by Mahross, Jul 24, 2003.

  1. Mahross

    Mahross Ace

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    Total Bomber Command losses by the end of the War were as follows

    Avro Lancaster 4171
    Handly Page Halifax 2627
    Vickers Wellington 1970
    Short Stirling 891
    Bristol Blenheim 745
    Handly Page Hampden 743
    De Havilland Mosquito 533
    Armstrong Whitworth Whitley 509
    Fairy Battle 217
    Avro Manchester 104
    Boston 71
    Ventura 53
    Fortress 24
    Mitchell 20
    Lysander* 16
    Anson 12
    Hudson* 8
    Liberator 6
    Hereford 2
    Warwick 2
    Beaufighter 1
    Master 1
    Oxford 1

    * SOE Operations

    http://www.jtennet.freeserve.co.uk/RAFBC.htm
     
  2. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    That is an excellent site you found. It goes to show just how many aircraft get lost just by training accidents alone. Thanks for posting it. ;)
     
  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Sorry but don´t recall this part anymore if it´s been mentioned. As well the site is not working anymore (?) , well, at least I cannot find it.

    IN Hastings´Bomber Command it says " An aircraft that crashed in England was never included in Bomber Command´s official casualty figures, however many of its crew were killed or wounded, and these added at least 15 per cent to the published loss figures for most of the war."

    Were all losses inluced in the figures here?
     
  4. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Very interesting figures indeed. I was surprised to read the low figure for the Lysander ( 16 ) and even the Boston (71) . I took part in two Boston commemorations last year .
     
  5. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    I am guessing the low figures for the A-20 and Lysander are the losses just within Bomber Command and not counting tactical airforces and Coastal Command and Training Command losses.

    Could be wrong but that is nothing new. :pinkpanther:
     
  6. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    You're right Ta, Lysanders were used for SOE operations but still I always thought the casulties would have been higher. The reason I mentionned the Bostons is that these were used by quite a few squadron, especially with foreign volunteers (Dutch Squadron, Lorraine Free French etc... ) The Lorraine group lost quite a few bombers, for instance two crews on Octobre 3rd 1943.
     
  7. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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    Bomber Command Losses as recorded in various Gazettes during WW2 are now recorded on a searchable database at:
    Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers

    Enter your search criteria, then click on the bomber image to obtain the information filed on the bombers last flight as well as bomber production information, squadron postings, key operations flown, crew information, status (inj, esc, KIA, POW etc,...), crew medals & commendations, where KIA are buried.

    I can not begin to express my appreciation for the person who created this (non-commercial website) database. IMHO it is the #1 best resource on the net for those who with to research Bomber Command in WW2.

    PS
    Geordie Criab was a lad from my home town (Vernon BC Canada) whose crew was the only recorded Bomber rammed after Hitler ordered his fighters (in 1945) to "kamikaze" themselves after running out of ammunition. His sister died this week and low and behold, his story was there.

    I can note recommend enough: Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers
    Warning: go there on a strong day.
     
    TA152 and Slipdigit like this.
  8. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WWII Veteran

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    Fred

    I agree 100% with your asessment of this brilliant site and I have just fired off to the organisers my own few words of appreciation.
    The search facility is simply super !

    Ron
     
  9. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    it's a nice an useful database. I have even found a few things that were not available elsewhere on the net.
     
  10. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    Excellent reference site ! Thank you for posting it Fred and welcome to the forums. I hope Martin and Erich see this post. If you click the picture you get more information about the aircraft.

    What a shame he has to get colon cancer with only a 30% chance. :( I hope he recovers ! I too am going to write a thank you note for putting up the site.
     
  11. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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    As a MacInstosh addict: a querie, since the lostbombers.co.uk database was created with Locoscript and has not been updated since 2005.
    a) could this beautiful layout be (easily) transferred to modern web authoring programs. (!)
    b) Locoscript only works on ancient non Intel PC type computers Right?
    _____________
    "If you can't afford to do something right, then make darn sure you can afford to do it wrong." (-;
    Charles Nelson
     
  12. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    well Fred if you do take it over let me offer my assistance in the involvement of German LW night casualties and victories.

    I know perferctly well this could take years to evolve. here is one exerpt for the Lanc PB 155 crew who claimed a Me 262 from 10./NJG 11 on 23 February 1945 over Pforzheim.
    first there were no losses to combat action by 10./NJG 11. Second on this eve 262's were no where south towards Pforzheim as they were flying close to Berlin out of Burg and they were in effect the only real Moskito-killers of the LW during the nights of 1945 protecting the capital. and please allow me a little correction to one of your postings above. Hitler never ordered kamikaze attacks in 1945 when running out of ammo. Sonerkommando Elbe had armed Bf 109g's in April of 1945 on day operation only and they had ammo for their mg cowling mounts, the 109's were to attack the rear of the B-24/B-17 formations by ramming and taking off the tails. only one op was tried and it was a complete failure. In fact it was not to be a suicide mission as the pilots were ordered to bail out at the last possible moment a stunt invented by Hajo Hermann not Hitler ...... pretty silly

    another one this time a Fortress III, HB 803 BU-L on the night of March 15/16, 45 the author of the site has used Chroleys bomber command 1945 extensively except to add that the Lanc was shot down by a Ju 88G-6 with Schräge Musik 2cm cannon fire and not by AA for the final demise. crashed 7 miles NW of Mayern confirmed by LW pilot of 1./NJG 5, Drünkler and crew at 22.46 hrs.
     
  13. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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    Off topic trivia:
    re ramming
    OOPS Erich. Yep, you caught it. But my damned edit button timed out. Couldna do nothing. (other than PM the forum god(s).)

    From: Military Photos
    "The origin of Sturm tactics can be traced back to Reichmarschall Hermann Goering's insistence that Reich defense units should start ramming bombers as a last resort. Although German Sturm units weren't tasked with ramming bombers exclusively, it was one of the many tactics employed as a last measure. With the exception of Rammkommando Elbe, no German units were specifically tasked for suicide missions, and even Rammkommando Elbe's pilots only rammed when there was a chance to get out of plane alive.

    Goering's Orders: 1943

    On 4 October 1943, the Eighth Air Force attacked Frankfurt-on-Main. The local party leader in Frankfurt protested very loudly about the fact that the "terror bombers" were not intercepted. This made Goering issue an order to all Reich defense units:

    "there are no weather conditions unfavourable enough to prevent fighter units from taking off - every fighter pilot who lands an undamaged machine without scoring a kill will be court martialed - if a fighter pilot is out of ammunition, or his guns are jammed, he is to ram the enemy bomber."

    After that the heated orders were put to rest and were virtually forgotten. Then Major Hans-Georg von Kornatzki persuaded certain powers to let him form an experimental unit based on the army's Sturm units who got in close to enemy units and engaged in hand-to-hand combat. He envisioned a unit designed to break up the heavily armed 4-engined bombers of the Eighth Air Force. Members pledged themselves to the unit by a handshake from Kornatzki. The rules of engagement in the unit were as follows:

    to look for a fight with 4-engined bombers, and whenever possible to avoid engagement with a fighter, to not open fire on the bombers until at a position of 150 to 200 meters, when the four engines appeared to be in the target circle of the Revi gun sight, to ram the bomber if weapons failed or the gunfire was ineffective.

    The new Staffel became operational in January 1944 under the command of Major Kornatzki. They were based alongside the First Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 1 (I./JG1) at Dortmund airfield."
    _________

    FYI sidebar re ramming:
    F/O G.R.R.Craib RCAF KIA. Geordie hailed from my home town.
    His is the only RAF bomber listed as being rammed at: Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers

    - I visit his memorial plaque at the Coldstream BC Cemetary regulary.
    He, along with two Mackey boys RCAF KIA (in Greece and Training Unit Canada) were my immediate neighbours. Shocking to realize at least three victims in WW2 Bomber ops from our tiny farming village alone. When they say "cold reality hit every town and village in the British Empire in WW2" they really meant it.
    _____________
    "Just remember, if you crash because of weather, your funeral will be held on a sunny day." (-;
    Layton A. Bennett
     
  14. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Sturm Staffel I used FW-190s . They were easy to recogise because they had three vertical stripes at the rear of the fuselage, one white between two blacks..
     
  15. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    actually Wikpedia is quite wrong

    you may still find on google : Sturmgruppen missions 1944

    and part of member FalkeEins and mine Sturmgruppen web-site

    Kornatski ordered the ramming law in paper and although pilots of Sturmstaffel 1 and later in the IV.Sturm/JG 3 and II.Sturm/JG 4 signed it they did not carry it out, in fact the Gruppenkommandeur of IV.Sturm/JG 3 Willi Moritiz met with his 3-4 staffel commanders and they discussed that the paper order was futile as pilots were worth far more than replaceable machines.
    did ramming occur, yes but very very few. When I interviewed friend O. Bösch and R. Franz about this very said item they both agreed to the statements I have referred to. In most cases the so-called rammings were actually the SturmFw machines getting in too close with the US heavies the pilots being killed by return bomber .50 fire and the Fw 190's crashed into the bombers.

    The second item regarding Elbe my friend and veteran Dr. F. Marktscheffel of course has kept me in touch with what really happened on the Elbe mission and afterwards for many years as he was part of the unit. I go back to what I said before the 109's did have mgs and ammo and they were not all unarmed, also conventional 109's with full arms were used by other 109gruppen. JG 7 with Me 262's were to provide high cover against US Mustang escorts but JG 7 left the scene and wnet after the US heavy bombers and scored
     
  16. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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    >Erich said:
    > offer my assistance in the involvement of German LW night casualties and victories.

    I have been trolling various WW2 Forums, looking for one with life, intelligence and thus a real future, settling on this one (why I joined recently.)

    lostbombers.co.uk is apparently missing some recorded losses and occasional ommisions and could benefit from input.
     
  17. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Fred we live in such an internet age where materials are demanded in a real hurry........... yes the case of lostbombers and time spent on retrieving data is instrumental. I think if a positive response to you is allowed please take him up on it..... and yes there will certainly be others to aid you in the work

    E ~ and of course let us all know how you fare with him
     
  18. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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    Thank him via mail@lostbombers.co.uk

    Note that:
    A. He may not know how to access his lostbombers email address or may not check it frequently.

    B. Noting the site was put up circa 2005 and perhaps he does not know that:
    i. There are tricks to making web sites show up on search engines aka Google etc,
    ii. That search engines can NOT find info tucked away on most databases put on internet sites...
    - and therefore it's possible that he may have become frustrated with apparent lack of interest in his work, making it all the more important for people like us to spread the word :spin: re his website and remarkable efforts. :yum: :dance1:

    ----
    The "617 The Operations Record Book 1943 - 1945" by Tobin Jones at
    Dambusters has 755 pages of info!
    Every ops detail, supposedly a complete list of all 617 Sqdn members, pages of articles and letters once stamped "Most Secret" and so forth and so on, ending with a series of letters from the King, Eisenhower etc.

    One happy guy here. :dance3:
     
  19. CJames

    CJames Member

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    Is there not a copyright issue here. Seems to be a direct copy from Mr Chorley's invalueable books. Some websites have banned the discussion of Lost Bombers.

    Chris
     
  20. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    ah but CJ one wonders if the lost bombers web-master has contacted Chorley with just this idea in mind ? yes I noted the copies of his works within earlier postings
     

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