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Halifax : Another Drewes victory

Discussion in 'Air War in Western Europe 1939 - 1945' started by Martin Bull, Mar 18, 2003.

  1. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Thanx Erich!

    More on Falck:

    http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/index.html?item88.html

    Wolf Falck's Me 110 bears the unit coding on the rear fuselage G9 + GA. The G9 is NJG 1 but his aircraft should be AA not GAS. When questioned about this, Falck said with a twinkle in his eye, "The G stood for a girl's name I was in love with and is also the seventh letter in the alphabet, Seven is my lucky number. "

    --------

    When we discussed how many victories you need to get Knight´s Cross I think Falck had seven, right? But he had shown his talent as an organizer etc to get is as well!


    :eek:
     
  2. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Kai :

    thumbs up for finding those great links as always ! :D Falck did have 7 victories but was the originator of the night fighting ideal and being so was the head until Kammhuber came along. I've got a headache so this probably won't make much sense.....he had 5 different early Bf 110c's with different codes, but I will have to check again. More in the Falck book when it comes out. He is a sweet man and does respond rather quickly by letter which is impressive for a man his age, who has other things on his mind.

    E
     
  3. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    Hey guys I don't read German and I am dying to know what the triangle and green, white,and red markings on the rudder of the Me-110 is all about!!!
     
  4. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Ta :

    Triangle ? the red/white slash marks on the rudder are a listing of Falk's victories. In most cases with these victories the date of the downing was written/painted into the kill mark. Not all of the night fighter aces had the kill marks posted. A red or white star or British roundel was usually placed under the kill mark to denote country involved with. The most prevalent was Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer and it was most accepted during the early part of the war especailly on Bf 110G-4's. There are a few of the Ju 88G-6's done but not many. Also the Knight Cross winners could have the KC panted above the rudder, and hanging down just above the swastika as "Tino" Becker had done on his Bf 110G.

    E
     
  5. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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  6. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Since when did Martin fly for Saddams air force ?

    this is really weird. ZG 76 birds had the shark mouth and later so did NJG 3 before they discontinued it. I have heard of lend lease Bf 110's in the early war but in this case for what I am not sure.

    someone else ? oooooooops wait a minute I found something. A staffel was posted to Iraq to stop any British intrusion and Martin scored a victory on May 20/21 1941 against a Gloster-Gladiator.

    E
     
  7. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Just bringing the topic back to 'escaping' aircrew -

    I forgot to mention that, for the Lancaster rear-gunner, the 'approved' method of escape was to centre the turret, open the rear doors, reach back into the fuselage for the parachute pack, put it on, close doors, turn turret 90 degrees, open doors, and fall out.....

    This is all OK of course, but usually, ( and certainly after a S/M attack ) the hydraulics would be u/s so the turret would have to be very slowly rotated by using a small hand-wheel....

    :eek: :eek: :( :(

    [ 03. April 2003, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]
     
  8. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    I did not know Iraq was on the German side in WWII ! I always thought that area of the world was under British control,even during the war.
    The Gloster pilot must have been really bad to let himself get shot down by a Me-110.
    What other countries were the Germans flying in that region ? Did Iraq join the Germans or did Germany invade ? I missed this totally in the history or WWII. [​IMG]
     
  9. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    This must have been during the Afrika Korp period but it is one of my weak points. NJG 2 with the JU 88C-6 was based in the Med in 1941-42 after it was taken off the intruder duties over England. Wish I could say more......

    maybe someone else can add to this. Hey out there !

    E
     
  10. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    http://www.csus.edu/indiv/s/scottjc/german.htm

    The first signs of German aid came through on 10 May with the arrival of the Reich’s newly appointed representative to Iraq, Dr. Fritz Grobba. Accompanying the Nazi official were two Heinkel He 111 bombers. Further additions to the Iraqi arsenal included a squadron each of He 111’s and Messerschmidt fighter-bombers.186 Meanwhile, a few days later, Rudolph Rahn, a special foreign ministry envoy, arrived in Syria to organize the proposed flow of munitions to Iraq. Rahn’s efforts produced the first arrival of supplies into Mosul on 13 May.

    It was not until 23 May that Hitler finally issued Directive No. 30. Coming at roughly the same time that Iraqi resistance was crumbling, the directive read as follows:

    The Arab liberation movement in the Middle East is our natural ally against Great Britain. In this connection, the rising in Iraq has special importance. It strengthens beyond the boundary of Iraq forces hostile to England in the Middle East, disturbs English communications and ties down English troops and shipping space at the expense of other theaters of war. I have therefore decided to advance developments in the Middle East by giving assistance to Iraq.187

    The directive clearly came too late. In fact, day after its dispatch, many of those involved in the coup, including the Mufti, could sense impending failure.

    But, as the planes were unable to land due to the lack of sufficient fueling facilities, the German promise rang hollow. With word of the Anglo-Iraqi armistice in Baghdad, and the false mention of the Mosul airfield’s capture, Grobba left for Syria on 31 May.191 Later that same day, Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel, head of the OKW (High Command of the German armed forces) sent the following message to General Felmy: “All forces are to gather at Alep. Their complete reverse is to be exercised until further intentions have been clarified with the French government in Vichy. Remove Iraqi insignia. Further orders will follow.”

    ----------

    http://www.wwii1939-1941.com/campaigns/iraq1941.html

    But on May 16 several fighters and bombers from Germany's Luftwaffe, painted with Iraqi markings, successfully attacked RAF. The Germans had flown from occupied Greece, refueled in neighboring Vichy French Syria, and then flown to the Iraqi city of Mosul, where they had made their base.

    Despite being attacked by the German planes, a British relief force from Palestine was able to relieve Habbaniya. British troops from Habbaniya and Basra then converged on Bagdad. Mussolini sent a few Italian biplane fighters to help, but Iraqi resistance crumbled in the face of the British advance. Rashid Ali and his supporters gave up and fled the country at the end of May and Iraq surrendered. The German and Italian air units fled Iraq by way of Syria again.

    It may be that in those dark days of early 1941, when Britain stood alone against the Axis, that the RAF's #4 Flying Training School at Habbaniya stopped the war from being lost before the United States joined the fight.

    :eek: :confused:
     
  12. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    David Williams´ Night fighters:

    I read by one of the interviewed pilots that aiming at the fuel tanks between the engines was the best place while one good shot ( probably 20 mm ) was often enough to set the wing on fire and the plane to fall...

    No wonder that with Schräge Musik they were often able to make fast victories ( like 5 minutes between "kills" )!

    :eek:
     
  13. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Kai :

    Think about that statement for a minute.....shots into the fuel tanks ! :eek: the idea was to set a fire into the wing root letting it spread to the fuel tanks as the German night fighter had already banked away right or left and over to one side to watch the effects and to be out of harms way if the bomber exploded.

    E
     
  14. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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  15. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    Wow a web site for bi-plane fighter aces !! How esoteric can you get ?!!
    That was the first thing that poped in my head when I read a Me-110 shot down a Gladitor ! If true the Gladitor pilot was a real loser. But I agree the web site makes you wonder if it is true. And it is strange how this thread has taken a turn to current events.

    I really like the biplane ace site. Thanks for finding that one Martin. Just think what will be on the web in ten years time !!
     
  16. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Taking evasive thread action again but in daylight..Just for Martin..Iraq....Johnnie Frosts old haunt wasnt it at beginning of war...seem to remember him being based with the army there for a while before he went off to airborne.

    Interesting though Iraq should turn up again in a thread...Basra, the very same city British invasion force started from after the Iraqi problem of the time.

    Not forgetting our and Russian invasion of Iran and chucking out of German delegation also.

    Syria too, we got around didnt we...suppose this should be on a mideast thread though.

    Interesting before the war, during times of Iraqi inserrection, Churchil was all for gassing the villages and inhabitants. Had the gas, just didnt have the means of delivery.
     
  17. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Doh !

    I'm gonna start me a NEW THREAD .... :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
  18. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    yep you better ..... ;)

    Martin the SM was very similiar in attack by the sturmgruppen during the day. Hit the inner engine and wing root to cuase complet instability of the a/c. It was inevitable that wing fuel tanks were hit and of course massive explosions but it was not the prime area(s) of attack.

    E
     
  19. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Erich, most descriptions I have read of Schrage Musik in '43/'44 attacks describes the aiming point as being between the engines.

    In Hinchliffe's book ( p.138 ) :

    '..(the pilot) would, in the case of a four-engined bomber, aim between the two engines on one wing, chosen because the main fuel tanks were situated there. The cannon fired a lethal mixture of armour-piercing, explosive and incendiary ammunition, and a split-second burst, a single pressure of the thumb on the firing button, was usually sufficient to set the wing ablaze and damage the bomber beyond hope of recovery.'

    And in an e-mail, Peter Spoden told me that : ' ...this was indeed a deadly weapon against the RAF. From a distance of 200 or 150 feet below the bomber we were shooting into the tanks between the engines where in most cases the fire started right away...'

    BTW I should say that I'm not spoiling for a fight over this ; I find the subject of ' Schrage Musik ' and its' effectiveness - and the fact that the RAF didn't seem to realise what was going on until after the war - quite fascinating.
     
  20. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Just dug up the correspondance with Peter from last two years. Yes you are correct, though I have to say this, several NJG 2 and 5 pilots have told me different. Ah well, at least we do know that the rounds were very effective and reduction of the super high explosive M geschoss was not used. A form of little explosive glimmspur was used which was faint tracer so they could watch the rounds go up and hit the target.
    M rounds besides being devastating would of simply blown the a/c apart at that close range enveloping both the RAF heavy and the German a/c. There have been a few cases where the German nf was too close on an "underneath" attack and the crippled heavy actually dropped so fast on the German nf that the crews could not escape from the collision. nope I beleive we are discussing and coming to some excellent conclusions.....no problemo ! ;)
    Martin, were the Hali and Lanc fuel tanks slightly armored in some way ? As you have shown on your excellent schematic the wings had three rather large tanks and hitting with 20mm anywhere would of caused extreme discomfort to the crews.

    E
     

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