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Königsberg just after the battle, 1945

Discussion in 'Post War 1945-1955' started by Skipper, Aug 17, 2014.

  1. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Königsberg just hours after the battle , with buildings still on fire and suvivors. From the Lithuanian archives

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kudjA0xLRE
     
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  2. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Fascinating stuff.
     
  3. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    Wow....see the sophisticated Red Army horse drawn transport. People bat on about the number of horses in the German Army for Barbarossa and other operations, and the stunning effect it had on the agriculture of the day, but think of the same effect on a country like the soviet union, with armies numbering in the many millions, an internal shortage of tractors and farm machinery, and the subsequent effect on agricultural production for a farm sector that relied far mre heavily on the horse than German ever did.

    The Soviets also fielded whole divisions of Cavalry right up to the end of the war, (in fact they had more cavalry earlier on in Barbarossa, and a greater mobility in the snowy months because of it. But think of the price that their agricultural sector paid for this equine extravagence. Germany had whole farms ploughed by farm tools drawn by people. Imagine what was occurring in the interior of the soviet Union, where mechanisation was only just hitting it's stride in the 1940's.

    It is said that the Red Army troops that stormed Berlin occupied the town in a never to be forgotten collection of horse drawn carts and panjes. This footage must have been that collection in minature. Absolutely facinating, with Napoleonic and modern technology still rubbing shoulders in our so called modern war.
     
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  4. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    " Imagine what was occurring in the interior of the soviet Union, where mechanisation was only just hitting it's stride in the 1940's."




    I like to see a proof for this claim.
     
  5. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    , and the subsequent effect on agricultural production for a farm sector that relied far mre heavily on the horse than German ever did.



    And also for this claim
     
  6. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    Professor, go to the post called "Breaking down soviet casualties".

    Both your questions will be answered.

    What a troll you are, More head inflating. Man, I really respected your opinions too. @#$% all that now.
     
  7. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    How many farms do you think had a tractor? That is what it boils down to
     
  8. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    I apologize for my earlier comments. sorry Ljd.

    back to business. I based this on the "Breaking Down Soviet Losses" thread. I felt that the many horses and farm ponies that the Red Army requisitioned for the infantry and service troops, plus the horse flesh and fodder that cavalry divisions needed, these factors would have substantially affected Soviet farms and agriculture. It all turned around the number of tractors in the SU in peacetime, and the number still needed to mechanize those farms that had yet to benefit from tractors and farm machinery. Then along comes the GPW, and suddenly most of that factory floor space is turned over to war production. I guessed that the number of tractors being produced nation wide would have been very much less (maybe even zero for some months of the war), so much that it was affecting the harvest, particularly so when most of the rich arable farmland in the Ukraine and White Russia had been captured.

    This left the steppe country in the Urals, (hardly rich farmland), and Siberia, (a white desert). Both these regions have permafrost in the soil to a greater or lesser degree, and both regions have a long winter, a long spring thaw, and a small window of weeks for planting.

    Add to this locomotives and rolling stock only enough to supply the needs of the military. So no food distribution to break famines, only for the essential war workers.

    further, any motorized transport is going to be taken by the military, and the fuel to run this or tractors on farms is going to be non-existant for food distribution.

    Something i thought of after, no merchant fleet to import food, and no internal river traffic due to lack of fuel for food distribution to break famines either.

    All this spelt FAMINE in the interior, particularly with the number of men in the army, idle for the harvest, and the drain on food. Add to this the security services had to be fed semi-proper, and the factory workers the same.

    The only source to possibly debunk this string of assumptions was called "The Bread of Affliction", and it's only contribution was to make a statement saying that apart from the groups identified above, (Military, security troops, essential war workers, everyone else "got by on 'victory' gardens".

    We looked at each other, (figuratively speaking) and said WTF? There is simply not enough protein to survive famines for two years with a vegetable garden. and what if the crop fails.?....

    Prime computation....there most likely WAS a famine in the interior, a bad one, that went on for two years.

    And that is why 28 million people lost in the SU suddenly sounded small. The last piece of the puzzle was that the Soviet Union had a history of 'carry on regardless' when faced with famine. They simply ignored it and carried on. In 1920-21, (10 million, maybe 15)....during collectivization.(14 million, but this has always been said to be a conservative estimate even by the Soviets themselves)....and so they could have carried on with many millions of people suffering death from starvation in wartime.....lots of them...maybe even 25 million people!!!

    So there you have it......Cross check....Green Slime did, and another fellow, sheldrake, i think, (sorry if i haven't mentioned anyone).....

    They were as amazed as i was by the end product logic. We had to tell the guy that asked for clarification of Soviet losses that everything about them, especially the final total, was in the realm of speculation. I am not sure he took it so well, but there it was. Green slime did say in another post that it was sometimes painful to have illusions shattered!
     
  9. Dave55

    Dave55 Member

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    Interesting movie. I always feel bad for the older people caught up in battle, like most of us do.


    I found this on Soviet tractor production:

    http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Collectivization+of+Agriculture+in+the+USSR

    The successes in collectivization and in the organizational and economic consolidation of the first kolkhozes were achieved owing to the creation of a strong tractor and agricultural machinery industry in the USSR. Assembly-line production of wheeled tractors was organized in 1924 at the Krasnyi Putilovets Plant (now the Leningrad Kirov Plant). Other tractor plants were put into operation in Stalingrad in 1930, in Kharkov in 1931, and in Cheliabinsk in 1933. When collectivization was first undertaken, tractors for Soviet agriculture came primarily from abroad, but in 1932 the USSR stopped importing tractors. During the first five-year plan alone (1929–32), Soviet agriculture was equipped with 153,900 tractors, of which 94,300 were made in the USSR. At the same time, major agricultural machinery plants were established, such as the Rostsel’mash Plant in Rostov-on-Don, which began production in 1930, and the Kommunar Combine Plant in Zaporozh’e, which opened in 1931.The opening of these plants made it possible to reequip the kolkhozes and sovkhozes during collectivization. In 1932, 148,000 tractors (15-horsepower units) and 14,000 combine harvesters were being used in Soviet agriculture, and in 1940, 648,000 tractors and 182,000 combine harvesters.
     
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  10. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    So, the greater majority of tractors and combines were in the regions with all the arable land. Further, much of this was in german hands by the end of 1941, not to mention the regions that were captured and scorched in 1942. Tractors and combines would, most likely, be some of the first equipment in the region to be 'scorched' in a rtreat, to deny the German use. But, with Leningrad, Stalingrad, Rostov on Don and Kharkov all either in german hands or converted to war production, I'm taking another guess the number of tractors and combines was not being replaced at all. Look at the tractor factory in stalingrad alone. completely turned over to tank production. not a single tractor was observed by the German people that captured the place.

    I'm afraid that this does not look good for anybody not in the army, security troops, or essential war workers.
     

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