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Lancasters lost 2./3. November 1944 ?

Discussion in 'Air War in Western Europe 1939 - 1945' started by Erich, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    a rather large battle ensued over Düsseldorf on November eve 2/3 1944 and a He 219 pilot and R/O of NJG 1 scored/claimed a large number of RAF 4 engines this night. within a matter of minutes from 2900m to 3500m.......

    Was curious if we know whom or what as to RAF bombers that Willi scored on the night of 2nd November 1944. I note from one listing 7 RAF bombers and another 6.

    he was flying from 3./NJG 1 and I am assuming he was flying the Uhu and if so the code ?

    Hello Erich

    Morlock (and Fw.Soika) flew a He219, code G9+HL. According to the KTB I.NJG 1 he shot down 'at least' 6 bombers and possibly another one (7th), all 'south of Düsseldorf' which is a very rough description.
    This and the short timeframe makes it virtually impossible to discover which bombers were the victims.

    Let me take a look in my files and I will return to you later. from experten M.H. the crew were flying an A-0 model.

    well anyone have any ideas ? I am not familiar that any RAF heavy group flew in typcial US bomber formation
     
  2. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Well, it's a typical school case and as you say it will probably be impossible to find out who shot down who that night. I also have 7 abschüsse , the germans considered a abschüs valid when an aircraft was seen falling down in flames. Seeing it crash was a confirmation. Therefore a crippled bomber that sometimes managed to return to its base and was written off later was considered as an abschuss. So did you check if any lancs were damaged beyond repair? this could account for number seven. The claims I have are all South of Düssledorf. If it's impossible to state who got such or such lanc, you could eliminate those who could not have been south of Düsseldorf (both Lancs and nightfighters) this will leave only a few potential candidates. Then by checking geographic locations some of them may have been around only for one kill before leaving the zone (short time frame) . It is highly probable the Wilhelm followed the stream at sight. He got his aircrafts between 19.25 and 19.37.
     
  3. Stevin

    Stevin Ace

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    I looked at lostbombers.co.uk but all the losses for 2 nov. have "loss cause not established". But they do have crews and sometimes where they crashed...
     
  4. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    thanks guys pretty interesting though I must say Willi is one of the few to claim so many in one night of the war. Chorley of which lostbomers uses info nearly directly as copy mentions at least 3 RAF bombers lost to Ju 88's and or night fighters, many of course were lost without the RAF crews knowing what hit them and probably will never be accurately accounted for unless some eye-witness at near to ground level was able to watch with intensity and accuracy.

    28 claims are made by LW pilot/Crews for RAF heavies all around the Düsseldorf region. all from NJG 1 and NJG 2.

    Oblt. Jung shot down 3 Lancasters NW of Düsseldorf and they are confirmed in his Ju 88G-6 from 19.35-19.42 hours. he was in II./NJG 2 as a Staffelkäpitan

    well the search wil continue, I also would like to find a pic of him and his R/O

    E ~
     
  5. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I will focuss on NJG2 claims, especially Semrau who got one South of Düsseldorf and two in the Ruhr (not very precise I'm afraid) I have quite a few details about this unit, more then NJG1 in fact.As to a picture it will be difficult. I suppose you tried Luftarchiv and Theo Boiten already. I have a group picture of NJG1 but he is not on it and therefore I suppose he joined later (in 1944?)
     
  6. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Skipper I have actually done neither one in contact. Semrau had 4 kills I believe. Wilhelm was an ace with something in the area of 14 victories before his death in the same He 219A-0 a night or two later while in air combat.

    need to look further in my listings.
     
  7. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Semrau had three kills confirmed, possibly four but I'm not sure about his fourth one.
    Concerning Morlock, I believe he is the only one (except one claim for Jansen) to have claims south of Düsseldorf. One way to find out is to locate one or more Lancaster crash sites. Those south of Düsseldorf could be the ones you are looking for. Also Jansen and Morlock both got a Lanc at 19.31, so one of these is certainly Morlock's (the one will probably be the closest location to his next kill which only two minutes later so he had to be very close and see his next victim while shooting at the previous one). By pinpointing one of these Lancs you would have a good lead.
     
  8. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    well that is a maybe Skipper. I am also aware of what Tonys listings say and they do not agree totally with what the official NF listing has to offer. sadly I have to wait as others for Theos massive work which will details the events.

    Hptm Lau of II./NJG 1 at 19.36 claimed a 4-mot SW of the city and also one in the same area previously at 19.34 hrs. some mix up am sure.

    have Semrau's claims at 19.13
    19.17
    19.23
    19.40 hrs.

    these may not be in conjunction with Tony's claims list which I need to check further. I have no claim for a Jansen but for a Unteroffizier Jänicke from II./NJG 1 over a 4-mot 25 km Southeast of the city at 19.34 hrs.
    another thing and this is the decryption again of the files from Freiburg but there are some goof-ups as to the spelling of last names of the pilots through-out.

    11 claims by Stab. and II./NJG 2 crews

    I wish there was an easier way to confirm but there is not at the moment. much guess work but knowing full well that this is what research is about

    E ~ thoughts ?
     
  9. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Lau is south west of Düsseldorf but close enough for a confusion.

    The Semrau claims I have are 19.15, 19.17 and 19.21 I have no claim for 19.23, but that's is only a matte rof 2 minutes. (the next is Morlock at 19.25. The Jansen I/NJG11 claim is at 19.31. I have Jnaicke too at 19.34 (25km SE Düsseldorf). If you do not have Jansen who is your 19.31 claim besides Morlock ?
    I seldom use Tony's data base only , but more a conjunction based on Tony, Safaric, Foreman , but mostly sources from local searchers (sometimes Luftarchiv etc..)
     
  10. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    yes I also use about 5 resources, and things just plain pop up that needs to be included. will check on the NJG 11 109 kill by Jansen or should say he flew most likely a G-6/AS or G-14/AS before the I./NJG 11 received their hot rod G-10's. although the unit was to be express purpose to fly against the LSNF Mossie they found it was much better luck to go after a 4 engine Lanc or Hali and actually all 3 gruppen were ordered to change over by end of December 44 to this mode. Just too many aircraft both twin and singles of the LW so cross overs of pilots claiming the correct claim/kills are really tough, you know that of course.

    skipper believe it or not but I do not have a claim at 19.31 hours. all around before and after times though. do have H. Rökkers claim of 1 Lanc at that time but that is the next night I believe on the Bochum raid whih is another story in itself. Rökker claimed 4 RAF heavies, 2 Lancs and 2 Hali's.

    back to the previous night NJG 2 seemed to be hunting in the north and NW of Düsseldorf. Hauptmann Kamstieß claimed his 4th 4-engine right over the city at 19.50hrs. he was from II./NJG 2
     
  11. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Yes NJG2 flew in the area from Düsseldorf going north all the way to Denmark. Since you noted Rökker, I took his chronic and noted that the Möckel crew was lost at Esjberg due to friendly flak. I doubt it was the same operation but , stil this loss has to be taken into account:
    Ju-88 G1 3/NJG2 werk: 710610 Ff: Möckel Bf: Lehne Bm:Schröder.
    The crew is buried in Esjberg. NJG2 was based at Kassel Rothwesten which seems fair to fly to Düsseldorf, but the Esjberg presence makes me think of a Wilde Sau refuelling or something. The fact that it was shot down by own flak shows the Germans did not expect this aircraft and it was possibly lost. Do you know if the weather conditions were foggy?
     
  12. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    not sure if the weather conditions were low clouds or fog, but the 2cm units were a real hazard to LW nf's that came in to low damaged or looking for another airfield due to whatever reason(s). NJG 2 staffeln were based at several satellite fields according to my notes.
     
  13. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    oops got another claim south of Düsseldorf : Obtl Thurner from 3/NJG1 at 19.33 (Morlock got one at the same moment at the same place, so they must have been together or even possibly share this claim). Difficult isn't it?
     
  14. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    yes this was his only claim while in 3./NJG 1 and he was also flying an He 219A like the rest of I./NJG 1. A different Lancaster but he was close in the same area of Wilhelm M. flying a free lance, very doubtful they shared the same RAF bomber
     
  15. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    This would mean there are two Lancs at almost the same crash site. I checked Chorley, but he doesn't mention any details. There are a bunch of Lancs you could possibly eliminate as many crews apprently crashed over the Belgian border (those who were gathered and buried together at Hotton Heverlee or Leopoldburg, or Hneri-Chapelle). I presume they were united in 1945 though, as they are all big war cemeteries (except Henri-Chapelle), so it doesn't help to locate where these fellows came from. Those who crashed near Düsseldorf had apparently the same fate but were buried at Rheinberg war cemetery or Rheinwald war cemetery, so I presume you ar elooking for these crews first. One interesting detail MZ798 DY-M was shot down south of Leuven, Belgium at 19.45, so you can elimiate this Lanc + the fighter who shot him down. A few other lancs have exact crash locations (Düren, Schmitt etc.. )
     
  16. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    one of the other problems that exist Skipper is that the next night some of the RAF heavies were shot down in the area of Düsseldorf as well and by the same LW NF units. also the claims reports where the actions took place NOT where the bomber crashed. There is some and in fact much desparity with the times - were they when the actions took place which is very and strongly plausible but also when and if the RAF bomber could be witnessed crashing a time was given and then put in the report. 3 NF pilots I have interviewed came with the same conclusions with me and still today are confused about the timing issues which again adds to the total frustration of whom shot at or shot down whom and where even if the crashes were placed out of the area some 100 miles or further along the way.
     
  17. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    true, not to mention the time difference between England and Germany which makes the confusion evne worse. However you can eliminate certain candidates at least, but I agree that it will probably impossible to find out who got such and such claim. You could try the public records in London and look for evader reports (AR14 if I remember correctly) They would at least tell you if they were attacked by a UHU or a Ju-88, but mostly they would not know who got them in the dead angle...
     
  18. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    the reports from the public records in the UK will be used in Theo's work and of course NASM and others throughout the world. there is always the possibility when Marcel has the time-the reference made in my first post , he will have the energies to post something to me then it will probably give me an answer, as I am not sure if the RAF bombers were lost to the forward guns or Schräge Musik present on the Uhu
     
  19. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    well since it is still the 4th of November today I am going to tweek this even more with some interesting stats as Morlock was involved and others we have discussed, once I pull out my data in the morn...... ~ 30 LW claims including Oblt. Fritz krause of NJG 11 a Lancaster over Bochum confirmed. 3 victories by UHU pilots of I./NJG 1. Skipper the man Augenstein claimed 3 Lancasters in his Bf 110G-4. NJg 1 was over Düsseldorf as well on the evening of the 4th
     
  20. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Excellent. It seems like Theo's book will be the book for both of us to buy. If you like the history of NJG1 you should really get Cornelissen's 2007 book "Huzaren van the Nacht". It's a little beauty. It has some great pics including group pictures of 8NJG1, crashsite pictures, pctures of both NJG1 pilots and the allied pilots who were shot down by them. A lot about Lütje, Augenstein's first claim account etc...
     

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