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MAY 16TH 1943 WARSAW POLAND / THE SS

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by WALT, May 16, 2002.

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  1. Steve

    Steve Member

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    To even consider putting the US and the UK in the same group as Germany, Japan and even Russia when war crimes are discussed is about as crazy as anything I've ever heard. I dont think the US held out on Japans wanting to surrender just so they could use the second bomb. I also think its crazy to say that Germany and Japan didnt start the war. They both wanted to expand their countries "empires" to include countries that they had no right to. They were guilty of causing the war then and always will be. There is no way you can absolve them of starting the war and continuing the fight when all was lost causing more needless casualties on all sides.
     
  2. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    I would say the eveybody has their opinion on this but one thing we all can agree on is that every country did perform some kind of cruelty regardless of the level of severity. In WWII the US did not meet the cruelty level of the Axis powers but it made up for it in Vietnam.
     
  3. Doc Raider

    Doc Raider Member

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    Walt,

    I for one whole-heartedly agree with you, and I think that your point was made very well. The allies (I personally don't consider the facist-reds allies) just didn't come close to the axis.

    Yes, all killing is bad, no sh*t. But...and I may be wrong, I think there is a big difference between on one side things like the rape of nanking, death camps, Einzatsgruppen (sp?)(oh, and that whole trying to take over the world thing) and on the other side the death of civilians from the bombings of cities. I think that, with very few acceptions, the intent is completely different, although I do recognize that the allies had a kind of vengence in the back (or possibly front) of their mind. And I know that German SOLDIERS, civilians, etc. are not to blame. Nothing against any of them. But I can not even comprehend how anyone could compair the actions or intents of the allies (again, not including the bolshevicks) and the axis. I know Germans get a bad rap all of the time, but cripes!
     
  4. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Yan--thats basically true but, the Russians COULD have done more in saving lives than in the taking the lives of appx 84,000 lives of STALINGRAD prisoners--as a lone example.

    My best friends in Germanys father was a medic attached to a Pioneer unit at Stalingrad. He spent time in a russian GULAG from 1943 to 1955, his crime was--saving the lives of many of his sick or wounded comrades. This man was not a combat soldier. Today-he is a very successful Doctor living near Konstanz, Germany.
     
  5. WALT

    WALT Member

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    Hello Guys, and thanks for the posts. You all made some good points, and I agree with most of them. The ones I disagree with dont matter.Ive had my say, and it did me good to get it off my chest.....The whole thing is troubleing isnt it, no matter what our stance may be. I think We would all agree that we who study War are perhaps more aware than most of the horrors of it...and we wish the world would get its act together. I think one reason Im so upset about all this, is because we seem to be on the brink again....GOD FORBID.
     
  6. Yan

    Yan Member

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    Your source for German POW's returning is? And Katyn was done by Stalin and the NKVD, neither the Red Army or the citizens of the Soviet Union had anything to do with it.
     
  7. Yan

    Yan Member

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    They could have done many things, but this was war and these were men who wanted to see them and their families dead, how much help would you offer them?
     
  8. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    This was the most civil debate over such and contoversial topic I have ever seen. It's good to know respect didn't go completely out the window here.
     
  9. WALT

    WALT Member

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    Your fine leadership sets the tone for these Foruns.We are proud of you...Now I know why you are a Field Marshall ;)
     
  10. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Thanks Walt, but I'm not going to take credit, for something I had no part in. This thread could easily have gotten really ugly. I know on other forums this probably would have happened, but here it didn't even though reading the thread I could sense some very strong opinions. :cool: Shucks, you guys make me proud! :D ;)
     
  11. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Yan, but you forget one thing--even if they felt that they should kill the POWs one way or another--they had it well within their powers to not do so.

    The Germans did not kill masses of allied POWs--with the exception of those from the Sovie Union. Yes that was a huge tragedy and stupidness on Hitlers part to allow it, and sickly as you mentioned--thats war.

    One has to understand that the method and brutality of warfare fought on the Eastern Front was drastically different that that of warfare waged in North Africa, or anywhere on the Western Front. ;)
     
  12. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Your source for German POW's returning is? And Katyn was done by Stalin and the NKVD, neither the Red Army or the citizens of the Soviet Union had anything to do with it.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    Then what happened with the concentration camps and atrocities in the East and some in the West were committed by the Einsatzgruppen and the Totenkopfverbande, not the German People or Wehrmacht.

    Carl is correct in that there is no proof of who started the killing of prisoners (on the record it was the Russians in Poland) but it happened on both sides and kept on happening. Does not make it right but when you see some of the atrocities committed against your friends, I can understand how it may have escalated. Not right but I can understand.

    [ 24 May 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]
     
  13. Yan

    Yan Member

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    Again, it was war, their actions have reasons behind them, and I for one don't judge them since I didn't experience or go through what they went through. But I neither condone nor condemn them.
     
  14. Yan

    Yan Member

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    Your source for German POW's returning is? And Katyn was done by Stalin and the NKVD, neither the Red Army or the citizens of the Soviet Union had anything to do with it.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Then what happened with the concentration camps and atrocities in the East and some in the West were committed by the Einsatzgruppen and the Totenkopfverbande, not the German People or Wehrmacht.

    Carl is correct in that there is no proof of who started the killing of prisoners (on the record it was the Russians in Poland) but it happened on both sides and kept on happening. Does not make it right but when you see some of the atrocities committed against your friends, I can understand how it may have escalated. Not right but I can understand.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    "Deutsche militdrische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by R|diger Overmans

    Says 3 million POW's total were taken, 360,000 died. At the same there are other sources that say something like 1.9 million were taken, while 600,000 or so were released at the front, it's a very complicated thing to research. The Wehrmacht did indeed commit many atrocities in the East, there is a reason there is a book out entitled "The German ARMY and Genocide" as well as Omer Bartov's books, get them, the Wehrmacht was not innocent and was just as bad as the SS.
     
  15. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Omer Bartov is a Red-Blooded Communist sympathiser and has slanted one-sided views on what really happened. I have red only one book by him ann will NEVER read any of his garbage again. Too bad he couldnt be more truthful--like Leo Tolstoy.

    With Omer--its only HIS view (gee sounds exactly like stephen ambrose doesnt it?)or no view is accepted. As you can tell--I dont like the plagerising ambrose either.

    Now back to the original topic: The Wehrmacht is as bad as the SS? Can I ask you what you base this on?

    I KNOW too many Wehrmacht veterans to take this lightly. I know what units they served in--where they served--what they did--to allow that remark to go un-challenged.

    No disrespect intended. [​IMG]
     
  16. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    It is a pity. The Wehrmacht was as bloodiest as the SS. Perhaps worse, because it was bigger.

    Otto is right. I should not give very specific examples about war crimes which I am sure took place. I do not want to cause veterans any problems.

    I can just say that many, many Soviet soldiers were killed inmediately after being taken prisoners, by the men which did the fight, of the Wehrmacht.
     
  17. Yitzak Meidner

    Yitzak Meidner recruit

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    Hey, Fried! I read waht you posted about your grandfather just before it was edited!Your grandfather is a German stupid butcher like all of them!

    I think he isn't pretty young... so a place in hell is waiting for him!

    How can you all admire such butchers and despicable countries such as Japan or Germany. haven't you been thaught History?!
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Member

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    The Wehrmacht as bloody as the SS? Not likely. Even as large as the regular army was I would never compare their war crimes with those of the SS. I'm sure there were instances of war crimes in the Wehrmacht but to use a blanket statement comparing them with the SS is crazy. To compare Hitlers personal killers with the average infantryman is a comparison that should never be made. For the most part there was a mutual respect between fighting men of the regular armies and except for the rare instances most of
    the war crimes were commited by the maniacs of Hitlers SS. One other thing to consider is the fact the on the Eastern Front Russian troops were fighting for their homeland and therefore would tend to use tactics that were unheard of on the Western Front. Until the Allies were actually fighting in Germany the Wehrmacht never saw fit to use tactics like these but once the war had come to their homeland the tactics that they once considered extreme they now would use themselves. Combat is more personal when you're fighting for your homeland. I will not say that any army was innocent, for war (especially on your own soil) brings out the worst in man.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Hi Friedrich: Unfortunatly I didnt get to read your original post, but please disregard the ramblings of someone as insensitive as Yitzak. As I mentioned in my last posting no army is innocent but war brings out the worst in man.

    Yitzak: I think you need to understand this forum before you start running your mouth. Alot of us have fathers and grandfathers that served on both sides of the war and although we may not always agree with things that happened we WILL NOT tolerate other members insulting our families or anyone else for that matter. What happened during the war was done in the heat of battle and does not make a person a butcher.
     
  20. WALT

    WALT Member

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    STEVE good post...... MEMBER #315 I see you are a student from Israel. Welcome to the Forum, however, Steve is right, I think you should consider carefully what you say here. All of us have strong opinions on this matter, but if you are going to try to get anyone to consider your point of view....insulting everyone will get you nowhere..not to mention, you were just plain rude.
     
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