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  1. USAF_Retired

    USAF_Retired New Member

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    I've always wondered how bad the War would have been for the Allies if Hitler had actually done something smart militarily (as he screwed up so much) and directed the entire German fighter industry to maximum, full production of the ME-262 as early as possible, maybe late 1942 or early 1943.
     
  2. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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    Well he should have followed peoples advice and made the 262 a pure interceptor/fighter. Not a fighter/bomber. But it was still too late.
     
  3. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    plenty already on this Sir....Use the search mode...
     
  4. USAF_Retired

    USAF_Retired New Member

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    OK is this going to be one of those forums where the answer to everything is "just search on it"?
     
  5. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    CAC can come off as a bit blunt. Just another crazy Aussie. But in this case there are a few threads that this has been discussed in. Perhaps some of your questions have already been answered in them. Some of the members that posted in them were very knowledgeable and are no longer active on the forum (TAGardner in particular).

    Here's a few of them for your reading at your leisure. You'll have to ignore the immaturity of a few of the original posters -- they do contain some decent information. The first one is the best resource.

    http://www.ww2f.com/topic/10899-what-if-the-me-262-was-created-earlier/

    http://www.ww2f.com/topic/44279-was-the-me-262-able-to-turn-the-tide-of-war-if-introduced-earlier/
    http://www.ww2f.com/topic/33610-wha...d-the-me-262-and-others-listed-below-in-1943/
    http://www.ww2f.com/topic/691-me-262-vs-p-51/
     
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  6. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member

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    I do not find that the case at all. If a topic has been covered then I appreciate being told to look back. If it is new and worthy it will grow into a meaningful thread. Lots of well informed people on the subject of WW2 here, I do not count myself as one but I have never felt myself an outsider. It has a sister forum, WW2Talk , that is Commonwealth based and also a good forum an .

    Welcome to WW11F

    Gaines
     
  7. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Didnt mean to be blunt...just that i remember threads (which i have contributed to) which cover just this topic...The Colonel could ressurect some of them with his comments...
     
  8. green slime

    green slime Member

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    It would've been a disaster.

    Engine life was way too short. Strategic materials/metals were in very short supply. The effect would've only accelerated the Allied efforts.

    What was needed, was a far greater focus/emphasis/priority on fighters/interceptors, already in the pre-war years, including training the best pilot candidates to be fighters, not bombers, and training alot more of them.
     
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  9. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Concentration of the FW would have had better results...
     
  10. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    The Germans had some outstanding failures with "second generation" aircraft so some pre war designs had to be reinstated in production.

    The following list of "stretched well beyond reasonable replacement date" is telling (failed planned replacements in parenthesis) , the Fw 190 is the possible "exception to the rule" and even the radial engine Fw suffered from poor high altitude performance so had to be supplented by 109s. betting on the Me 262 would have been an even bigger technological risk.

    Me 109 (Me 209, Me 209 II , Me 309)
    Me 110 (Me 210)
    He 111 (He 177) the 111 was considered a heavy bomber at the time of it's design
    Ju 88 (Bomber B programme)
    Ju 52 (Ju 352)
    Something could be said also for the Ju 87/Hs 129 and there are rumors some units would have preferred the Hs 123 to both.
     
  11. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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    The He 112 was supposed to be very good, but for whatever reason they went with the Bf 109. Shennanigans.
     
  12. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    My mail is that the biggest reason they stayed with the 109 is it required the least strategic materials to make....not the only reason, but the biggest.
     
  13. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    Jet engine technology was developed independently in Germany and the UK and the Me262 in 1942 is as likely as the Gloucester Meteor at the Battle of Britian.

    Hitler had a point. By 1944 large number of Me262s could not change the course of the war. Even on a good day the Jadgflieger could not shoot down enough US day bombers to make a decisive difference. The idea of an armada of a thousand operational jet fighters with trained pilots sweeping the skies is fantasy. The Germans did build 1,400 of them (and some 600 of the me163 and He162) Had someone waved a tehcnologiocal wand and accelerated their introduction to 1942 I dare say the British and US would have followed suit with their jet aircraft.

    The Germans needed invulnerable bombers to prevent an Allied landing on D Day or pulverise the attackers, or good aerial recce over the UK during spring 1944. The Ar 234 was probably the more important aircraft. Ar234 with Fritz X or wire guided ASM might have made a big difference to D Day.
     
  14. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Here's my $0.02 worth on the topic: Had Germany put most of her airplane production into fighter production in early 1942 and had on hand, in the Summer/Fall of 1943, 800-1000 ME-109s and FW-190s, piloted by reasonably competent pilots; they would have had a good chance to end daylight bombing of the Reich.

    If the USA had then tried again in 1944 after re-building up their bomber force and using the longer range P-47s, P-38s and the new P-51 then the German response would have to be appropriately larger. By Jan. 1, 1944, at the latest, the Luftwaffe would need to have: At least 100-150 operational 262s available, 750 radial-engine FW-190 maximized for bomber destruction as well as approximately 500 ME-109G10/G14 or K models and/or FW-190Ds. These numbers are rough estimates based on Adolph Galland's formula given to Hitler that for each bomber the Americans put up he would need three fighters and for each escort he would need one fighter of roughly equivalent performance.

    When the bombers were on the inward flight to Germany, the ME 109s, FW-190Ds and ME-262s* would attack the escort fighters shooting down as many as possible, making them jettison their drop tanks and scattering their formations. This would allow the radial-engine FW190s to attack the bombers in large groups. On the bombers way out the 262s would fly a second mission concentrating on the bombers.

    (*) a not here on the ME 262. Trying to dog fight a P-51 or any other piston-engine fighter would have been counter-productive to say the least. However using variations of the tactics developed by Chennault and Molders/Galland in 1940 should have been productive. Instead of a diving slashing attack from above they could have used a slashing attack from behind and below in the enemy's blind spot.
     
  15. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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    Wonder if they had carried on with the BV155, rather than wonder fighters, would they have been more able to deter US bombing.
     
  16. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    The problem with this is the US escort tactics by late war were to have P-47 escort the bombers into Germany at which point P-51's and P-38's would take over the escort to the target and for part of the return journey. At some point on the return they were again met by shorter range or just other escorts releasing the long range escorts to attack targets of opertunity. The US also started stationing CAP over the Me-262 bases which would have made repeated sorties rather dangerous.
     
  17. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    This supposes that the Germans concentrated on Fighter production in 1942.. It is the height This assumes that the Germans would have anticipated that their #1 concern was to defend German airspace rather than defeat the Soviet Union. It assumes that the Germans would have fully mobilised their economy earlier. But it took the shock of Stalingrad to mobilise for total war. Had the Germans taken the war as seriously in 1940 as they did in 1944 then they would have won the battle of Britain. If Hitler had appreciated that the US could mobilise fleets of heavy bombers then he might not have declared war...

    This is an implausible counter-factual...
     
  18. harolds

    harolds Member

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    lwd: Yes, that is what happened. That is also why I specified that all this would have to happen by early '44 at the latest, before the number of long-range fighters became overwhelming and their reserves of avgas were exhausted.. Again, it would have to be a quick victory or nothing.

    Sheldrake: I totally agree! Given the predisposition of the supreme leader and his fat toady, plus the competing demands of various lobbies within the Luftwaffe it would have been extremely unlikely that this course of action would have been taken. However, it is on record that Galland pretty much recommended this strategy. The point is that I was responding to the original post and laid out what I believe it would have taken to defeat the USAAF. I didn't make any comment on the political aspects of this because I assumed most of the people on the board would have understood that it was a political non-starter in nazi Germany.
     
  19. green slime

    green slime Member

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    For Germany to attempt this by 1942 was impossible. By then it was far too late.

    1) In 1942, the Luftwaffe was throwing almost every available pilot into the meat-grinder of the Eastern front. Including pilots barely trained, and their teachers, exacerbating the future shortage. They weren't doing this for fun and games. It was always "just a little more effort, will see us through this current mess."
    2) The US joined the war in Dec 1941. The Germans themselves knew how massive the advantage for the west would be, yet still did not anticipate how quickly the US would ramp up. They had assumed they had 4 or 5 years, at least. No one thought they be getting creamed by the Mighty 8th in massive raids within 36 months.

    As I stated earlier, to create a LW capable of defending the Reich, as well as fulfilling it's minimal obligations in the East, would've required serious measures already in the pre-war years, and considering what had actually been done, it is hard to see just how they could've squeezed out sufficiently more effort out of the rearmament tube. Consider the pace of change world wide:

    In 1933, air forces had biplanes. Lots of them. Most countries still had significant numbers of them at the outbreak of the war.
    Mid 1930's, retractable gear was found to be a good thing...
    Late 1930's jet engined prototypes started flying. A prototype is a very different beast from a series run.

    The German armed forces conscription did not provide exemptions for engineers or university degrees of any sort, the wastage of human intelligent capital was enormous. Many Physicists, Chemists, and Engineers found themselves ultimately in LW Infantry divisions...

    Furthermore, the entire period of the interbellum, it was assumed by all sides "that the bomber always gets through", which led to a huge focus on Bomber forces, therefore, the best pilot recruits in the Luftwaffe, were trained as bombers, not fighters.

    Göring was not the man of massive insight to see through the misconceptions of his time, and lay the required fundamental groundwork.

    To solve the issue with the lack of pilots, would've needed to be addressed already pre-war. To ramp up the production of suitable types in time, would've required more dedication of scarce pre-war resources, and an application of thinking very foreign to what was commonly accepted in Germany at the time.

    Additionally, what's worse for Germany, is that there were attempts to build large manufacturing base for engines and aircraft undertaken prior to the war. But they were not fully completed on time, due to a myriad of issues. It needs more than a Jean-Luc Picard saying "Make it so" for things to happen.
     
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  20. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    there might be new people who want to discuss with other new people.....I was on another forum where the admin said more or less screw your post, we've discussed this before!!... if you don't want to discuss the subject, then don't be a jerk about it...
     

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