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Numbers on panzer turrets

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by Gibson, Jun 17, 2002.

  1. Gibson

    Gibson Member

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    I need to refresh my memory, because I knew this and just want to be positive. THe numbers on panzer turrets symbolize Abteilung/Kompanie/Zug, correct?

    Where 143 would be 1st battalion, 4th company, 3rd platoon?

    Or

    1st company, 4th platoon, 3rd panzer in the tank platoon... I am pretty sure its one of these two combos but I am not sure. On a tactical level it would probably make more sense for the latter, but who knows.

    Thanks!

    If I am wrong please correct me
     
  2. Otto

    Otto Spambot Nemesis Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Yep you got it right the second time Gibson. Command tanks were usually numbered 1 in the platoon, eg.: 141.

    It burns me up to see german tanks in movies with 002 or 006 on their turrets. :mad: How can a tank belong to to 0th Company?

    [ 17 June 2002, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: Otto ]
     
  3. Gibson

    Gibson Member

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    Otto, prompt reply, danke! I remember hearing an interesting story about that but I cannot recall it for the life of me.

    Hopefully one of our more enlightened members can help out, I was thinking about that also but decided to go with the easy question first. Maybe an educated guess could be right - to confuse the enemy during certain operations regarding platoon organization? I am almost certain its not right, but you never know!
     
  4. Otto

    Otto Spambot Nemesis Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I know that during the Kursk offensive, the German armoured units changed their unit insignia to confuse the Russians.

    It is both concieveable and likely that these panzer designations were altered as well, not only for kursk, but in other battles also.
     
  5. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Guys :

    Singular numerations were common on Stab machines.

    Typical for Tiger 1's and 2's. S01.....Schwere Tiger # 1 of Stab.
    Grossdeutschland had a confusing numeral system of B01, etc.
    C01, etc, all this in 1943 of August.
    In September 43 A01, B01, C01,etc. This was also continued in August of 44, all with III./Panzer regiment.
    Of interest is the 13./SS Panzer regiment 1 with 14 Tiger 1's in July of 43. the Kompanie was the first two numbers, example being 1305, 1304, 1334, etc. This was later changed in November of 43 to S05 S04 of the Regiment stab and also with 5 Zug's S-11 through S15
    S21-S25
    S31-S35
    S41-S45
    S51-S55 Each zug with 5 Tiger 1's.
    Another example is Schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 102 in June of 44 with 45 Tiger 1's. Stab of the battalion had 3 Tiger 1's, 001, 002, 003
    1st kompanie stab was 141,142, then 3 zug's with
    111-114
    121-124
    131-134 4 Tiger 1's each
    3 kompanies in the Abteilung and to continue the confusion here is the Abteilung 502 in March of 45
    Stab 555, and an un-numbered Tiger 2 in each Stab of the Kompanie.
    1st Kompanie was 111-113
    121-123
    131-133 3 Tiger 2's in each Kompanie.

    Well I hope this can help aid your research as it does take some time to assess all the variations in Panzer markings. Is there a set rule, yes but it varied as can be seen.

    E :cool:
     
  6. Otto

    Otto Spambot Nemesis Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Darn, I guess some of those films were right! [​IMG]
     
  7. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Otto :

    You may be referrring to the Tiger II's of SS Schwere Panzer Abteilung 501 in the Ardenne correct ? As the cine films show 001 and another Panzer going down a narrow street.

    E
     
  8. Paul Errass

    Paul Errass Member

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    Erich,

    According to Hubert Meyer,Micheal Wittmann was probably killed in Tiger 007,which was the Tiger of Abteilung Commander Hein Von Westernhagen,who had been sidelined by illness.
    Do you know how many Tigers formed the Abt Stab of s.SS Pz Abt 101?

    Paul [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  9. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Hi Paul !

    As of 1 August 1944 there were 3 Tiger 1's

    007, 008, and 009

    1st Kompanie 105 and 104 (Stab)
    2nd Kompanie 205 and 204 (Stab)
    3rd Kompanie 1 un-numbered Tiger 1.(Stab)
    E :cool:
     
  10. Paul Errass

    Paul Errass Member

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    Thanks Erich,

    Hope you are recovering well?I have some great photos of the BefehlsPanzer of SS Panzer Rgt 5 "Wiking" (Panther)which is numbered RO2 !!.With Hannes Muhlencamp in the Turret.

    Best wishes,

    Paul [​IMG]
     
  11. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Paul, yes I think I know the photos you speak of. Wasn't there also several pics of Panthers of the 5th SS with the first numerations I or II01 or something like this ? Thought these might be the Panzer adjutant's vehicles ?......1st or 2nd Abteilung ?

    E
     
  12. Paul Errass

    Paul Errass Member

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    Erich,

    Yes you are right i have a photo,which shows RO2 together with another 2 Panthers,one of which appears to be numbered II 011?As the II Abt was the Panther Abt i assume that is an Abt stab Panzer although it appears to only have one antenna.

    Paul
     
  13. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    I wish I knew more about the system Paul but gather that the II meant 2nd Abteilung. By chance do you have any or have seen late war Pz IV's of the 5th SS Pz's 1st Abteilung ?

    E
     
  14. Paul Errass

    Paul Errass Member

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    Erich,

    I have the Regimental History of SS Panzer Rgt 5,Verweht Sind Die Spuren,which has many photos of I/Abt.I also have a friend who served with the Regt's Panzer IV Abt,so he could answer any questions you may have.

    Paul
     
  15. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Yes, I have the same book but seems to cover the II Abteilung at length and I think it is a very good volume, just wish more would of been done on the late war tales of the I. Abteilung.
    Is you friend a former Panzer Kommanduer Paul ?

    This sounds very interesting.....

    E
     
  16. Paul Errass

    Paul Errass Member

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    Erich,

    Your right again,the book does tend to feature the Panther Abt towards the end of the war and not so much I/Abt i don't know why.
    My friend was a Richtschutze and then a Commander of Panzer III's and IV's in the Regt.

    Paul [​IMG]
     
  17. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Paul :

    So your friend served through 44-45 in the 1 or 2nd Kompanie correct ? How many victories if I can ask ??

    E
     
  18. Paul Errass

    Paul Errass Member

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    Correct again Erich,he served with 2 Kompanie.

    I must admit i have never asked how many victories he had,i am visiting him in July so will ask then.

    Paul [​IMG]
     
  19. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Ok I am on a roll then. Paul I'll have to write you a private about him then. I am very interested if he has any stories to tell of his late 44 through 45 combat operations and if he remembers the turret numbers of his Panzer IV ? Also I can only assume that in late 44 his panzer still carried sch├╝rtzen or maybe they all fell off ? Who was his Kompanie chef ?, etc.....maybe a signed pic in his Panzer uniform >..? can send you funds on this. Also was the camo uniform used in late 44 through 45 or did his crew go back to the older grey or black style uniforms...?

    E
     
  20. Paul Errass

    Paul Errass Member

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    No problems Erich,i will ask him whatever you would like to know.
    Send me a private message or mail,i have acouple of addresses for s.SS Pz Abt 503,for you,if you haven't got them already.

    Paul [​IMG]
     

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