Discussion in 'The Stump' started by Shadow Master, Dec 20, 2009.
See Stefan's post #113 urqh in reference to the Royal Tank Regiments losing their tanks.
We can't get tanks out here so RTR and most other cav regiments are getting trained up for MOG stuff or straight forward infantry roles (like the Light Dragoons did last year).
Kruska, sorry, I'm joining the Danes, they have a union!
The Danes, indeed, indeed.
The lack of MBT's such as a Leopard PSO,(AMAP-M, AMAP-IED) in Afghanistan is indeed something I find hard to follow on, damn politicians.
Well if you join the Danes, you might get a ride in their Leo's which now are receiving PSO and IBD upgrading. But remember "they" are troublemakers (ISAF-Camp Mainama 2006)
BTW, are you with C Squadron The Household Cavalry ?
Regards and thumbs crossed for you
Afraid not Kruska, mate of mine is though. I'm a brigade asset at the mo involved in surveillance stuff, getting to travel a lot and seeing some interesting places so it's not all bad.
The Leos look awesome, they just aren't chally 2's though
Mainama? What happenned there?
Not at C Squadron allright, I just thought so because they have a Stefan as well riding a Spartan.
Bahh, chally 2's ain't agile - but huge buggers though
Mainama - 4 dead, 15 or so wounded inside and about 50 outside. It was after those Danish Mohammed carton's came up.
Upps..just checked your profile - you look different - and the other Stephan is a strech older then you!
I'll ask my old boss, he is with them now, find out if he knows him.
Chally 2's don't need to be agile, they are virtually indestructable and can go through almost anything.
The Danish cartoon was rediculous, it wasn't even published in the press originally but some good got hold of it. Oh well.
Tankies still exist....There are plenty still in Germany. Parked with engines sittinfg next to them....Just the drivers seem to be missing too....They are all out with Stefan driving tzxis in their newly mafiad whitehall fought role to give them something to do. Guards bn lt.Col killed by ied recently...His driver was a tankie...Its what they do now.
True enough Urqh, 1RTR are the viking group out here, the MOG are cav, we all have a role it's just a question of accepting what it has become.
You know that our armored battalions that are sent to Iraq these days fight as infantry, as do the artillery and other non-infantry battalions. When they are activated (Guard and Reserves) or notified (regular army) for deployment, they spend about 6 weeks undergoing infantry training, and then deployed as such. They are then eligible for the Combat Action Badge instead of the Combat Infantry Badge upon completion of duty.
Same goes for a lot of our guy, one colonel informed his guys they were deploying in 12 months as infantry and would be training as such up until then. PDT is being extended and the remainder of UK based training is going over to preparing troops for Afghan.
It's interesting to see the changing attitude to our reserves too, regulars seem far more accepting now that we send guys out to make up their numbers (not as formed units but as individual soldiers). You get the normal banter of course but with more and more TA out here it isn't as barbed, sadly the army is that small that they need us.
I just hope that this whole ISAF/NATO joke will be stopped as soon as possible and everybody get's send home.
This whole Afghan war, just shows how ridiculous and ineffective NATO is or has become - thanks to the politicians, and those military ranks bending their butts to them.
I personally would vote for going home - what about you guys?
Not until the job is done, whatever that is. Of course I'm not there with them. I'm at home already. I believe that there is no point in pulling out hastily and leaving the region to other extremist groups to go back in and start this mess all over again. We haven't been successfully hit since 11 Sept 01, so something is working. I really do wish all this unpleasantness was over and done with though so all the troops can go home.
Yes, but I don't see a way to get the job done at all - certainly not the way it has been forwarded in this country since 8 years - with no further result since the inital destruction of the Taliban government.
It needs and should be handeled by the ANA - it's their country now. And if ANA is to weak - well there is a reason for this - then obviously the people in Afgahnistan see things differently from the West until today.
Well said. And personally, I think they ought to get the hell out of that quagmire of a country asap. Clearly the people dont want us there and most dont care that our people are dying too. I think their Pres is a freak of nature and hes playing up to both sides.
You are right, I don't see the big picture or have any answers either. But just pulling up and walking away won't do it. Instead of us fighting them there, we'd be fighting them here. I don't think that there is an easy solution, or an easy way out. Vietnamization didn't work either.
I'm gonna have to come in on the other side here, I have talked to locals, I've seen them around our guys and (whilst I don't trust them) the attitude here is changing. The increased use of the ANA and ANP to front what is going on, more involvement with locals, actually following through when we do conduct ops rather than leaving everything to fall apart again, all these things are helping us make progress. We can't leave the ANA to fight on their own now, they will loose simple as that. We can however support them until such a time as they can fight the taliban on their own and can keep them out. We can't win this war but they can, the best we can hope to do is to help bring about an 'Afghan' victory rather than simply handing the country back to the Taliban.
Sadly we can't afford to just give up, not just because it will make all the sacrifices that have been made worthless, it will also leave the area open to become a terrorist training camp again.
Two final points, firstly look at the change in tactics by our enemy, they now rely on IEDs because they can't face us in a fight and new equipment and techniques are helpiing us to defeat even those. Secondly, Carl, you say the locals don't care that our guys are dieing, well to some extent that is true, after all they see a couple of our guys dead whilst hundreds of ANA and local civilians die, they are fairly numb to it. Plus of course we are an occupying force, would you be that fussed if some apparently god like occupying ally took a couple of casualties in Corpus Christie? Having said that, the other week I was around when one of our guys was killed by an IED, without going into too much detail the locals actually went to a lot of effort to pay their respects, I won't go into detail on here but they were open, honest, respectful and helpful. It isn't the same everywhere of course but really, we aren't as hated as people make out.
I was able to spend a few days with a Soldier after he returned to the US from 12 months in Afghanistan. He had been home just over a year and was heading for Iraq with the 101st. He stated much the same. We must continue but along with Military strength find a way to influence the people. Their culture is 'foreign' (for lack of a better word), to us and we need to understand their perspective in order to assist them. Afghanistan has known very few years without some kind of struggle or internal conflict causing those who live there to be extremely suspicious of "outsiders". Things are slowly turning for the better but sadly will take time to get to where they need to be. Hearing his "take" was an eye-opener for me since all my "information" had been gathered from the National News Media. I have a disk with hundreds of pictures of the country, it's people, and it's infrastructure, taken by combat photographers, which shows how lacking for just the bare minimum the people really are. As he put it "We need to influence the 'influence'ers", showing them they can have basic Right's and Freedom without fear of condemnation by extremists.
My forwarded option to go home does not neglect the issue of "we can't afford to just give up" - it results from the observation of what happened so far and how things are supposed to develop - nowhere IMHO.
We have to seperate military point of views from the political situation in Afghanistan and especially from those of the "observing" Afghan population.
Our military is doing "their" job now for more then 5 years, if we take 2004 as a starter.
Despite 10 million males of age, a meager 100,000 is serving in the ANA + another 80,000 in the ANP. Money is certainly not the problem to exuse the failing numbers of volunteers. - their monthly income is around 10-35$.
(for one German Para -extra pay, you can pay off about 70 of them). There are more then 4000 Germans there = 280,000 ANA's - just for the German extra wages alone.
Equipment is stored a mass in that country - we will see, by end of 2011 they are supposed to number 180,000 - I bet they will not, and 2 years to get an extra 80,000 people to savegard "their" country - is redicilous and shows the "real" attitude of the Afghans towards their contry and government.
It is the political intrigueness and tribal family hegomony of Karsai and his government that disscourages others to join up. In the meantime not a single prominent figure from the former Northern Alliance is represented in the Government or higher positions in military or police.
It was formost the Northern Alliance that fought and toppeled the Taliban. Karsai's half-brother is still the biggest drug lord in A - who even doesn't refrain from releasing and using Talbans loyal or usefull to his business and MoD Wardek....well...
If at the present stage of development - we will need to secure this place for at least another 5 years - Karsai's term will be ending then. Just like the US 2x4 years. Abdullah Abdullah is just waiting for his chance - unless something should "happen" to him - but there are others and unlike him far more radical to take his place.
Afghanistans future is not decided by Kabul or the West in Afghan, it is decided by Pakistan, Iran and their Paschtuns living in poverty and radicalization beyond Afghans borders.
This whole Afghan is a political mess - it is not a western military problem, well anyway I better start to stop my rant now...
Kruska, I agree that Afghanistan is a mess right now but Stefan and Biak do have a point. The question, at least for me, is what else would work? Sadly that's a question with no easy answers.
Hello Falcon Jun,
The answer IMO is very simple - the western politicians/countries have to re-define and impose a new governmental system in Afghan - or get out, until then, military actions by ISAF will not aid in solving the problem at all- but only help to subdue Talban and other radical muslim organizations.
The present ISAF/US-Karsai issue is a mirror of the former US/Diem Vietnam history. - how did it end? and why did it end in that way?
The US recognized that the South Vietnamese army was in no position to hold off the NVA and VC. Instead of speeding up the process of beefing up the South Vietnamese army and even more important ridding the corruption of the Diem regime they got themselves caught up in solving the problem by sending their own troops and thus dissabeling the formation of a South Vietnamese identity towards an acceptable government and their own reliable Armed Forces.
At the end they fought more or less on their own against the entire country - since the majority of the South Vietnamese did not see or accept Saigon, and as such provided no support.
Why didn't the US pull out? because they did not wan't communism to spread and secondly because they failed to see the corruption of a government ridding itsself of its own countrymens support.
The majority of the Afghan factions do not support Karsai - the majority of the Paschtuns don't even live in Afghanistan - but in Pakistan and Iran.
So either impose by military force if necessary a suitable government in Kabul or get out - the present path is a joke.
What did the allies do with Germany after 1945? - disarm the whole bloody country and implement law and order by using their own military.
Educate the people - support the growth of economy - set up and controll a police force. - then 4 years later provide independence based on a democratic setup that includes political parties - unlike Afghanistan - and 6 years later allow the formation of an Army - whose members had time to develop democratic understanding in the past 10 years.
Imagine the allies upon defeating Nazi-Germany - simply institute a Bavarian president in their favor - who had fought Stalin and as such automatically qualifies to be a friend of the allies, disregarding that more then half the German population of which 80% would be Bavarians is residing outside Germany in France - mostly in Alsacce with no love in their heart for the allies, and Nazis operating in the occupied zone of Germany with the support of the new German president whose half-brother is the biggest drug dealer and members of this new government.
A doubious mob of Germans is recruited to be a National Army - who however most of the Germans do not like or accept.
Those prominent Saxons who had fought against the Nazis are meanwhile all excluded from the new German government and start to fraternize with those Germans of whom 80% are Bavarians living in France.
France in the meantime fears to be taken over or at least the province of Alsacce by the Nazis who had fled Germany or live and agitate amongst those Bavarians who live in Alsacce since centuries. In the meantime Germany has been occupied by allied troops for 8 years and the allied governments - still have no clue - but to believe that as time goes by everything will be nice and happy.
Sounds nuts? well that is exactly what is happening in Afghanistan.
So IMHO, implement by force if necessary a suitable government - or get out.