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Rhein wiesen lager

Discussion in 'Post War 1945-1955' started by aquist, Aug 6, 2010.

  1. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    The quote and ref is from ,'Other Losses,' and you can take that as you will- badly I suppose. The anecdotal evidence- I've spoken first hand to a GI who was a guard and I asked him about the SS and his experience of them. His answer was that, 'there was a policy that they didn't get as far as the prison camp.' This and other such accounts confirm David Stafford. As for your gibe I'm sure that you've got more self respect than to repeat it. I hope so. Let's keep to the discussion and not get personal.
     
  2. sniper1946

    sniper1946 Expert

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    stop pussy footing around? put up or shut up...
     
  3. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    I'm the one putting forward the evidence and trying to develop this thread. This is no contribution to the debate. Why not try some reasoned debate instead? Isn't this what this forum is about? What's your evidence to counter my own?
     
  4. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    And do you have a name and/or details for the GI guard so that we can try and corroborate his story to at least some extent?

    and incidentally there is no way to produce evidence of an unwritten policy not existing. The burden of proof is with you.
     
  5. sniper1946

    sniper1946 Expert

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    debating is fine, but not providing proof/support of your statements..will not ..?
     
  6. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    Thanks for the reply. David Stafford has described in,' Endgame,' just what I'm claiming about the SS. The SS rarely survived as prisoners because of an unwritten policy. Eisenhower was too clever for that. Wikipedia also acknowledges the policy after the massacre at Malmedy

    Link: Malmedy massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Knowledge of the massacre "led to considerable retaliation against German prisoners of war during and after that battle."[18] Few SS came to be taken prisoner by units such as the 3rd Armored Division.[18] An example of the aftermath of the massacre is the written order from the HQ of the 328th US Army Infantry Regiment, dated December 21, 1944: No SS troops or paratroopers will be taken prisoner but will be shot on sight.ii[›][18] A possible example of a related large massacre against Germans is the Chenogne massacre. At the Saar river the 90th Infantry troops "took revenge on the SS in such a systematic manner late in December 1944 that headquarters had to issue express orders to take SS soldiers alive so as to be able to obtain information from them."[19]
     
  7. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    How many times has that particular book been shown to be wrong?

    It's pure anecdotal evidence, since there is no way you can back it up with evidence. What part of that don't you quite understand?

    I think the fact you refuse to deny it speaks volumes.
    Now; do you have any real evidence for your claims- or not?
     
  8. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    You're right about an unwritten policy being difficult to prove but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. If we look at the experiences of the SS, as prisoners, the attitudes that prevailed, then we can see a consistent line of evidence that suggests something is amiss.
     
  9. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    Read my reply to sniper. As for your accusations I will give you the courtesy and time to deny it so can we now put that one out to grass and get on with it. As for Bacque it's too easy to just dismiss him saying Ambrose said Bacque's wrong so that makes Bacque wrong.
     
  10. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    From an actual veteran;
    http://www.ww2f.com/members/franek.html
    SS Colonel Peiper - World War II Forums

    "Fragmentary Order 27 issued by Headquarters, 328th Infantry on 21 December for the attack scheduled for the following day says: "No SS troops or paratroopers will be taken prisoners but will betakenQUOTE

    On December 16th.1944 I was wounded at the Loshiem Gap on the Border of Belgium and Germany in the Ardennes. I was confronted by a German infantry laden tank. I managed to escape by running into the woods after being shot through the leg. I was evacuated to Malmedy the hours later.. I was then evacuated to Paris on the 16th.

    About a week later all of the walking wounded ordered back to the front ,along with any available men. Cooks, Bakers, Truck drivers. Quartermasters ETC.

    Upon arrival my outfit the 99th could not be located. I was assigned to a rag tag outfit of strangers.. I was directed to dig in on a ridge at Elsenborne Belgium. On my right were two Polish Machine gunners attached to the British Army. On my left there were other GI's separated from their outfits. We were well dug in and ready for an attack. It was not long after that the attack came. We beat off two attacks leaving the field littered with dead and wounded Germans. After the second attack the Germans retreated.. We were ordered to advance and mop up. Although we received no orders not to take prisoners, there were many shots, but just a few prisoners..This was just 10 days after Malmedy.. It was fresh in everyone's mind. Nothing was never said. We never received an official order to kill prisoners.

    I speak only from my experiences. There may have been orders to other outfits, but I cant speak for them."
     
  11. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    So your whole case rests on pure speculation, in other words?

    Ask yourself why SS men were classified as "Black", "C++" after interrogation. It's because they were die-hard Nazis.
    Now, in a court of law, that would instantly make them unreliable witnesses because of their perceived bias.
     
  12. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Read Spartanroller's reply to that.
    Tell you what; why don't YOU put all OUR minds to rest by just denying the accusations?
     
  13. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Stafford quoted anecdotal evidence. No more, no less.

    That's a lie, and you know it.
     
  14. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    My respects to you. Can you go so far as saying that it was acceptable to shoot prisoners and wounded? That there was a general culture of knowing that this was favoured by those in command?
     
  15. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    So are you saying that Stafford has created a portion of his book based only on superficial evidence and hearsay and that as a respected historian that he got away with it?
     
  16. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    I'm saying he quoted anecdotal evidence, since I'm only getting your side of what was allegedly written in the book.
     
  17. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    At no point does that witness mention actually seeing wounded prisoners being shot.
    He also reiterates there was never an official order not to take prisoners.
    Again, your entire case rests on speculation.
     
  18. Rhineman

    Rhineman Member

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    Spartanroller doesn't need to say he saw the prisoners being shot. Speculation is hardly needed here. The evidence of his account very stongly suggests what the truth of what was going on.
    'Although we received no orders not to take prisoners, there were many shots, but just a few prisoners..This was just 10 days after Malmedy.' This and the orders issued to the 328 Regiment should be enough to prove the point. Neither you nor I was there but Spartanroller was. David Stafford has witnesses to the same happening.
     
  19. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    Just to be clear - I was not there.

    My post is a quote from a veteran, as described.

    If that was not clear, I apologise.

    There seems to be more than enough anecdotal evidence, both in the account I quoted and elsewhere on the net and in literature, to suggest that individual US soldiers may have committed acts outside of the law, and justified it later by saying they thought it to be an unwritten policy.

    That does not;

    a; make it true or not that atrocities were carried out
    b; make it true or not that it was an official policy

    The evidence points to the fact that very few if any SS soldiers were killed in this manner, and many were taken prisoner, so the chances of it having been widely 'known' to be an 'official' policy is unlikely.
     
  20. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you?
    There were 20,000 SS PoWs in camps in Britain-
    Prisoners of War
    - and camp #180 at Saffron Waldon was set up specially for men of the Hitler Youth SS.
     

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