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Russia Attacks Georgia

Discussion in 'Military History' started by texson66, Aug 8, 2008.

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  1. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

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    You can criticize Medvedev/Putin! ANd I mean you hate russians cause we attacked Georgia. Though its lie. I don't like Putin and Medvedev, but they are better choice from today's russian leaders. YOu can criticise Medvedev and Putin but you must say true! Not RUssia attacked Georgia. We only go to stabilized conflict how you did it always. For example Iraq.
     
  2. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

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    By the way today is traur in my country.
     
  3. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Soviet Man, I don't think many of us hate Russia and I have a true respect for this great country, but I said it is not above international laws. If Georgia has done something wrong Russia should refer to the UN, not beat the shit out of a defenless country. again I believe we need to unite with Russia , not blame each other, but Russia cannot act today as is if Georga is still it's back garden. Also I have a deep respect for the fallen soldiers and the grief of their mothers.
     
  4. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

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    Georgia is not defendless. It bought many weapons and tanks. There are also tanks of NATO there. It were weak but it were many of them. There are also old soviet tanks. Georgia prepared for war with Russia. But today war is over, Medvedev and Nicolas Sarcozy said it in MOCOW. But if georgians will attack ossetians we will fighting with them again.
     
  5. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Honestly I don't think that Georgia has much of an army left and it's very unlikely they will attempt anyhting with what they have left. Nato tanks ? Are you sure? They bought some material from the west but use them under their own banner, not Nato.
     
  6. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

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    yes they used it under their banner.
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Under NATO flag?? Any pics to prove it?
     
  8. qrisso

    qrisso recruit

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    Soviet man,

    We don't hate Russia. But NATO and the West must do something about this. If Russia will see that they can destroy objects that are vital for Georgia's economy, and are not related to S. Ossetia's conflict. And that other countries don't do anything, Russia will see that they can invade a country by stating "we are defending our people from this terrible country". Then we can only guess which Russia's small neighbour is going to be next in the Russia's "to - do" list, Latvia, or maybe Estonia, Lithuania perhaps ? Russia already threatened Latvia, if it will give any support to Georgia. Russia since Soviet Union felt apart has been bullying it's small neighbours. Russia is just acting like a big bully, and nobody can do anything about it, because Russia has all the resources that Europe needs. And if they will get this oil pipe from Georgia, Russia will have even bigger monopoly.

    At least people in all small neighbuor countries that support Georgia are buying Georgia's wine :). And I must say, the wine is really good.

    He he, yeah women are beautiful, and you just wish that we will send 'em to you. We are having them less and less here, so this time m8, no can do, sorry :).

    Cheers.
     
  9. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

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    Damn I said by Georgian's banner.
     
  10. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

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    When USA killed Saddam Hucein who destoyed small villages all accept this and when Saakashvilly destroyed so many piceful citizens all began to say that Russia is agressot and Saakashvily is poor man whhich was invaded by russians. Though we don't invade it. We just go to defend citizens from georgians. And by the way we have in beginig much lesser soldiers there than georgians.
     
  11. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Ok Soviet man, no problem. Guys don't blame Soviet man for his ambigious answer, English is not his native language. I don't think many of us could have said what he said in Russian, so let's be understandable. :)

    Hey Grisso, if you wish , you go to our new member section and write a few lines to introduce yourself, you'd meet plenty of fine rogues there.
     
  12. Soviet man

    Soviet man Member

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    Thank you. I think you don't belive, me but here I speak true. I have friend in Ossetia.
     
  13. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    But but but...! :eek:

    Carl, since when have you become so anti-American? Look here, straight from the Oval Office:

    Press Conference by President Bush and Russian Federation President Putin

    :D
     
  14. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    "Saakashvili has offered South Ossetia autonomy within a single Georgian state but that falls far short of what separatists demand. "

    BBC NEWS | Europe | Country profiles | Regions and territories: South Ossetia

    Ok. Forget the Georgians. What can Russia offer that will satisfy South Ossetians. Putin/Medvedev do not accept independence I´d guess because that would be dangerous if North Ossetia would want to leave Russia...

    BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Country profiles | Regions and territories: North Ossetia

    "Rich in resources - including unexploited oil and gas reserves - North Ossetia is the most industrialised and urbanised republic in the North Caucasus."

    -------

    So Russia´s next move? Autonomy is not good enough for South Ossetians and Putin/Medvedev won´t grant them independence....It´s like a bear with a hand in a jamjar soon...You need to promise something,right?
     
  15. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    From Strategypage:

    Why Georgia Lost The War


    August 10, 2008: To no one's surprise, the Russians drove back a Georgian attempt to regain control of South Ossetia. There were several hundred military and civilian casualties. The fighting apparently began when some South Ossetia militiamen fired across the border at Georgian troops. This escalated to a Georgian invasion, and a Russian reinforcement of its peacekeepers, and the expulsion of the Georgian troops. All in the space of a week. The fighting continues, with Russian warplanes bombing civilians and military targets in Georgia and moving more troops into another breakaway Georgian region, Abkhazia. Georgia has asked for a ceasefire, but the Russians have not responded. ​


    Since the early 1990s, Russia and Georgia have argued over who should control South Ossetia, a Georgian province on the Russian border. Just to the north of South Ossetia, is the Russian territory of North Ossetia. The Soviets often split ethnic groups between two provinces (or "Autonomous Republics") to make it more difficult for the people to unite in opposition to the Soviet Union. This, among many similar measures, worked. Since the Russians moved in their peacekeepers in the early 1990s, they have issued Russian passports to the South Ossetians and, in effect, annexed the region. ​

    The Ossertians are a different ethnic group from the ethnic Georgians, as are the Abkhazians. This sort of ethnic mélange is common throughout the Caucasus. During the last years of the Soviet Union (1989-1991), ethnic tensions increased throughout the Soviet Union, as long dormant (and suppressed by a brutal police state) aspirations stirred once more. While the Soviet politicians pulled off an astonishing feat by dissolving the empire without bloodshed (and creating fourteen new countries from portions of the empire that decided not to stay with the new Russia), there were lots of smaller groups that still had separatist grievances. Two of these groups were in Georgia, and occupied the regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. ​

    The populations rebelled against the Georgian government and drove out Georgian officials, troops and ethnic Georgians. Thousands of ethnic Abkhazians and Ossetians fled to the new statelets. Since both of these areas were on the Russian border, Russia saw an opportunity to quiet things down (they did not want an ethnic based guerilla war going on along their border). So Russia offered its services as mediator and peacekeeper in the early 1990s, and peace was restored. The UN agreed all this, and a reluctant Georgia went along. But after that, the Russians refused to leave, or encourage the Abkhazians and Ossetians to work out a deal to become part of Georgia once more. Abkhazians and Ossetians wanted to be independent, and declared themselves so. No one else recognized this. In 2004, Georgia began cracking down on the smuggling and other criminal activity that was keeping the economy in South Ossetia going. This led to more and more gunfire along the border between Georgia and South Ossetia. ​

    Two years ago, Georgia began a major expansion of its armed forces. Officially, the active forces were then about 26,000 troops, already up from about 12,000-14,000 just a couple few years before that. Unofficially, the government has raised strength to about 28,000. This was done by adding more professional troops and increasing the order-of-battle by two battalions of conscripts. The government goal is to increase the active force to about 35,000. In addition, Georgia began building a reserve force. ​

    Until a few years ago the "reserves" constituted the entire body of conscripts discharged over the past 15 years. But this pool, of about 250,000 men, was just that, a pool. The "reservists" were not subject to periodic refresher training, and so no more than perhaps 10 percent of them could be considered useful in the event of activation. Beginning four years ago, Georgia instituted a more rigorous reserve training program. An active reserve has been created, which apparently numbers over 10,000 men, and is expected to grow to as many as 100,000 over the next few years, as conscripts (drafted at 18 to 18-24 months) leave active service, and enter 5-10 years of reserve duty. ​

    While Georgia doesn't have the money for modern equipment (it's stuff is mostly Russian Cold War vintage), it does have enough professional soldiers from the old Red Army, and a military tradition going back centuries. Much to the discomfort of Russia, the United States has been supplying Georgia with military trainers and some equipment. Partly, this is in response to Georgian help in Iraq. Georgia first sent 800 peacekeepers to Iraq, and began increasing that force. Currently there are 2,000 Georgian troops in Iraq, where they obtain useful operational experience. ​

    The principal reason for the military build-up is the secessionist regimes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The Georgians wanted the option of trying for a military solution. There are also some Russian troops, leftovers from Soviet Union era garrisons, still in the country. Georgia has been trying get all the Russian soldiers out since the Soviet Union collapsed (and Georgia became independent once more) in 1991. But the Russians have come up with a long string of excuses for delaying a final pullout. To make matters worse, several thousand of those troops are "peacekeepers" in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. To most Georgians, the Russian peacekeepers are there mainly to keep the rebel regions free of Georgian control. ​

    It's not yet clear what the Georgian government was thinking when they allowed the border skirmishing to escalate to a military effort to restore government control over South Ossetia. It didn't work, as the Russians promptly counterattacked and drove the Georgian troops out of South Ossetia. The Georgians can try a guerilla war, and hope that their new relationship with the United States and the European Union will add some measure of protection. That's a false hope. The Russians have made it clear during the last few years that any real, or imagined, Western influence or interference in nations that border Russia (what the Russians call the "near-abroad") will be opposed with lots of noise, followed by some firepower. The recent events in Georgia are an example of that, an example the Russians hope the West takes seriously, even if the Georgians don't. ​

    Russian politicians have been playing the nationalism card, catering to widespread feelings that the Soviet Union should be restored. Most Russians never cared for the communist dictatorship, but they did like being a superpower. The Russians also feel that those fourteen nations that split off when the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, left Russia surrounded by a lot of unstable and vulnerable nations. This sounds paternalistic and paranoid to Westerners, but not to Russians. And the Russians are willing to use force to back up these attitudes, as the Georgians just discovered. Russia still has nukes, and some Cold War attitudes that make for a potentially very dangerous situation. ​
     
  16. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    From The Economist:

    Russia says its military operations in Georgia are over
    [SIZE=-1]Aug. 12th[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]“THE aggressor has been punished; its armed forces have suffered significant losses and are disorganised." With these words, on Tuesday August 12th, Russia’s president, Dmitry Medvedev, announced the end of military operations in Georgia. The decision coincided with the arrival in Moscow of the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, who welcomed the decision as “good news”. It came a day after President George Bush said Russia’s push into a sovereign neighbouring state was “unacceptable in the 21st century”. European foreign ministers are due to hold an emergency meeting on Wednesday.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]It is unclear how much impact such diplomatic pressure has had on the Russian leadership—or leaderships, given the uncertain distribution of power between Mr Medvedev and his predecessor, Vladimir Putin, now prime minister.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]Western countries have offered the beleaguered Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili, little more than words of support. It remains to be seen how Mr Medvedev’s comments translate on the ground. Each side says the other has continued at least some fighting. Russian-backed forces in Abkhazia, one of the two separatist regions of Georgia, were making a push to clear Georgian troops out of the Kodori gorge—the only area of that breakaway province under Georgian control.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]On the main front—around the second breakaway region, South Ossetia—Russian and Georgian ground forces largely disengaged on Monday when Georgian troops fled the city of Gori before an expected Russian advance, apparently to regroup around the capital, Tbilisi. In the event, the Russians did not advance on Tbilisi but contented themselves with severing Georgia’s main east-west highway.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]If Mr Medvedev’s words are taken at face value, it seems the Kremlin has calculated that the benefit of inflicting further damage on Georgian forces, perhaps even physically evicting the detested Mr Saakashvili from power, was outweighed by the growing cost to Russia’s diplomatic position, and the burden of taking and occupying unambiguously sovereign Georgian territory.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]The military cost to Russia is still unclear. The Russian high command admitted to losing four planes, while Georgia claims to have shot down 20 aircraft; Mr Saakashvili claimed some Russian unexploded bombs had been daubed with messages such as “This one is for NATO”. Although routed in South Ossetia, Georgian forces might yet have put up a sterner fight to defend Tbilisi. The war, moreover, alarmed investors in Russia, weakening the rouble and Russian stocks.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]All told, the Kremlin may be content to take its gains—the humiliation of Mr Saakashvili, the exposure of the limits of western support for Georgia and the demonstration of Russia’s military power—without incurring further risk. Better, perhaps, to let Mr Saakashvili take the blame for rashly starting a failed war by trying to retake South Ossetia, than to portray him as a martyr for democracy and force western countries to do more to support him. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, claimed his country was not seeking to overthrow Mr Saakashvili, but said “it would be better if he went". Russia says it wants the International Criminal Court in The Hague to investigate what it says are war crimes, even genocide, committed by Georgian troops in South Ossetia. Mr Saakashvili said Russian forces were carrying out "ethnic cleansing" of Georgians in areas under their control.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]For the moment, though, Georgians seem to be rallying around Mr Saakashvili. A large crowd, estimated at around 150,000, cheered him at a rally in Tbilisi where an unrepentant Mr Saakashvili denounced Russia's aggression. He said Georgia did not start the war but had "no choice" but to respond to Russian military actions, and that nothing had been lost. "We will never allow that Georgia will be broken up into pieces." But his position may yet suffer if the immediate Russian military threat recedes and Georgia negotiates the terms of a permanent ceasefire.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]Russia has said it cannot accept the deployment of Georgian peacekeeping troops alongside Russian ones in South Ossetia, as suggested by France, after the past five days of fighting. Mr Medvedev, for his part, set two conditions for a full settlement of the conflict: Georgian troops had to return to their initial positions and be partly demilitarised; and Georgia had to sign a binding agreement ruling out the use of force to retake South Ossetia. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]Georgian officials say NATO's refusal earlier this year to give Georgia (and Ukraine) a firm framework to join the alliance, known as the “membership action programme” (MAP)—it got only a vague promise of eventual membership and a commitment to re-examine the issue in December—had given Russia a "green light" to attack the country. NATO's secretary-general, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, said the promise remained valid. But in reality, any hope that Georgia had of securing MAP at a meeting of NATO ministers in December has all but evaporated.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]David Miliband, Britain's foreign secretary, said on Tuesday that Russia could not expect “business as usual” in its relations with the West and that diplomatic pressure would be brought to bear where possible to curb Russian aggression. But the West has made clear it will not fight Russia for the sake of Georgia.[/SIZE]
     
  17. qrisso

    qrisso recruit

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    Wow, I just read on a Latvian news site, (don't know if it's worth posting the source since nobody will understand it). Anyway, one of the Euro Parliament's members, he said that Russia was having a very active military activity near the border of S.Ossetia. He claims that Russia were having "training" before the attack. These "trainings" were performed starting with 15th of July till 2nd August, which means that Russia was getting ready for the attack, and they knew that they will attack. Which just proves that Russia provoked Georgia, and they wanted to invade it.

    Also the same sort of military activity is now happening at the border line of Latvia and Ukraine. He claims that Russia is again regrouping it's men and is ready for something bad. Unofficial sources say that at the border of Latvia are around 8k Russian soldiers with 200 tanks. Last time this kind of military activity at the Latvia's border was during WW2.

    If it was known earlier, why NATO and EU didn't do anything about. This time it was too late with Georgia, let's hope it won't be too late if Russia has "new targets". EU and NATO must read and respond to the Warning signs.
     
  18. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Well if you read in between the lines, Georgia wants to be part of Nato and that's something Russia is not ready to accept. I can understand that, but at the same time it is Georgia's right to choose it's allies.
     
  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Anyone know how true this data is about issuing Russian passports?

    "Moscow hosted Kokoity on a regular basis, which meant a de facto recognition of the legality of his position. From 2002-2003 most South Ossetian residents acquired Russian passports. "

    The Post Soviet Knot: Understanding the Georgian-South Ossetian Conflict | e-IR

    Or this?

    A Russian passport is akin to a lifeline for South Ossetians - a way to get an education or a job in North Ossetia or Moscow. There are very few jobs in the region, so most families have at least one person working in Russia and sending money home.
     
  20. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    I heard on the news (so far as the media can be reliable) that 70% of the South Ossetian population have Russian passports.
     
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