Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Tali-Ihantala

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by Artema, Mar 12, 2010.

  1. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    OK.
    In such situations we say in Russia: "Your drain is accepted".
     
  2. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    I suppose, you pretend to be ironical? You do not look ironical, you look helpless. You announced Russian tank losses to be more than all the tanks the Russians possessed, and don't want to admit this. Well, it's your choice.
     
  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    I mentioned the figures I have in the books, so I can as well give the units credited the kills, but the figures are not mine, they are from the Finnish/German archives from Ihantala and fas well rom the same book I mentioned before " The red tanks":

    Men awarded tank killer badge: 360+ ( one of them personally destroyed 10 tanks with 75 mm AT )
    Finnish Sturmegeschütze : 80
    German Sturmgeschütze : 2
    Finnish air force : 40
    German Air Force ( Kuhlmey Stukas ) : 140

    All in all the losses would amount to 9 days´of production of tanks from the Russian factories.

    Besides the Red Army losses were huge in WW2 so I am not amazed about these figures:

    "According to Russian general Kvashnin who bases his statement on archival information SU lost around 95-96000 tanks in the entire WWII. Of those 26 000 were lost in 1941 alone during German blitzkrieg."

    Axis History Forum • View topic - Russian tank casualties
     
  4. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    First. Don't you think that such information about enemy losses is not.. eh... reliable enough? "How many tanks have we destroyed, 10 or 20?" "Let them be 50, we have no pity for the enemy!"
    When all Soviet army reports of killed German soldiers were summarized, the number was got which exceeded the whole population of the 3rd Reich. Similar things happened during the war not once, for example, in the Battle for England. Why do you think the Finns are exception?

    And, the second, what would you suggest to do with the list of Soviet tank formations that you cited yourself? It's from your book. Do you think it's fake? Yes or no?
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    I think it´s the best we have today. Maybe one day we can have the true data from the Russian archives and compare the results, but as long as that is not possible we have to do with what we got. Starting with the famous Kursk tank battle that never existed where the t-34´s rammed Tigers and Panthers I think it´s time to make corrections in the Soviet history books.
     
  6. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    Very well. So, please, try to learn yourself (if you don't believe me) how many tanks a brigade and a regiment contained in 1944 (it's not difficult), and make 2 simple operations of multiplication and addition, and you will probably know, how many Russian tanks there were at Tali-Ihantala.

    Oh, God. These books were written by Soviet propagandists, just like those Finnish propagandists which wrote the books you read.
    I don't know what do you have in Finland, but we in Russia possess all necessary information from archives, which is quite reliable. The books have been corrected years ago. Now it's your turn to stop confusing history with propaganda.
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    If you´re using Koskimaa´s book as reference, you should know the same man says the Red Army lost some 600 tanks in the Karelian battles:

    "...they lost some 600 tanks in Karelian Isthmus in summer 1944, many of them at Tali-Ihantala."

    I don´t believe he lies.... ;) and I agree with you 100% the man is correct!

    Axis History Forum • View topic - Battle of Tali-Ihantala
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    Vladimir Putin rewrites Russia's history books to promote patriotism - Europe, World - The Independent

    Now, the Kremlin claims it wants to change that situation and a recommissioning of Russia's history textbooks is under way. A handbook for teachers, on the basis of which a future textbook for students could be written, is called The Modern History of Russia, 1945-2006. Only one of the authors is a professional historian.

    ------

    Was this correction corrected?
     
  9. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    No-no! :cool: Facts and estimations are different things. Facts can be proved by documents and estimations are unfounded. The same person may give the right fact and erroneous estimation.
    But I am glad that you agree with the presence of German StuGs :p
     
  10. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    Well, this is a good example.

    You're right, Putin is willing to make historical science serve his interests. It's one of the reasons for me to dislike him. But can you guess why does he want to involve "historical politics" in his arsenal? I think you can: because he sees plainly that every one around uses it (Poland, Ukraine, Baltic countries). The Soviet Union used it effectively. Finland uses it. Why Putin should not?
    I hate using history for propaganda, so Putin does not belong to people whom I approve of.

    But there are also an important conclusion that can be made from your example. If Putin wants to make Russian historical science chauvinistic (which he thinks means "patriotic"), consequently, now it is not chauvinistic and is able to provide some impartial data. Otherwise, why Putin would want to "correct the correction"? ;)
     
  11. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    Kai-Petri
    I suggest you a cease-fire agreement.
    It's obvious that we're unable to convince each other. I have no intention of quarreling with you. I like your sincereness and hope you believe that I have no personal dislike to your country.
     
  12. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    I agree and feel the same way about You.
     
  13. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    :cheers:
     
    Kai-Petri likes this.
  14. edhunter76

    edhunter76 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    50
    For the record, Finnish history studies don't rely on propaganda, never has and never will. Not using propaganda might be a little bit hard to understand in some parts of the world.
     
  15. Artema

    Artema Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    13
    Yeah, sure.
     
  16. Lotvonen

    Lotvonen Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let us look at the research of Dr. Tapio Tiihonen. His subject is the battles of Carelian Isthmus in summer 1944. He researched for his dissertation for 14 years. He has published two history books basing on his research: Ratkaisu Kannaksella 1944 (y.2000) and Yllätys Kannaksella 1944 (y.2002). His sources are mostly in the Finnish War archives (Sota-arkisto).
    According to his studies the Red Army lost 730 tanks and assault guns in the Carelian Isthmus in June-July 1944.

    If the results of his research are declared wrong, it seems to me that the entire Finnish war archives should then consist of fiction and forgery. This I find hard to believe, I do not think anybody has claimed that yet.
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,462
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    Agree with you Lotvonen.

    However, just in case, including the Sturmgeschütze, Air force, artillery and mine kills, the Finns also : "about 3,900 of the Panzerfaust delivered to Finland during World War 2 were used in the war." If they were not directed at Red Army tanks I must say some Red Army soldiers were in a very hot spot indeed...

    FINNISH ARMY 1918 - 1945: INFANTRY AT-WEAPONS PART 2
     
  18. tali-ihantala

    tali-ihantala Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have to comment on this thread because its my screen name, great battle, have to root for the finns. Has anyone seen the movie, really good straight war flick. FYI at the battle of Portinhoikka crossroads, most of the soviet tanks were knocked out by panzerfausts and not Finnish tanks.
     
  19. AirdefMike

    AirdefMike Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    13
    to Artema:

    I'm under the impression that the Leningrad Military District received replacements that were sent to the units attacking Finland. When there were no more replacements to give (since the rest were to be used against Germany) the invasion was cancelled.

    Then again there could be a mistake with the Soviet tank losses as there were other battles in the Isthmus in the same time frame. For example Tsherepanov's 23rd Army was also engaged in the Isthmus and met some same Finnish units that the 21st Army did in Äyräpää-Vuosalmi. There the Soviets suffered heavy losses too.

    These 2 Finnish victories caused Stalin to relinquish his earlier "Finland's total surrender" and settle for an armistice + additional real estate in Finland (which was the will of USA and Great Britain, decided in Yalta).
     
  20. troj72

    troj72 recruit

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    one moar detail:

    One and not yet mentioned ( and decisive ) tool for Finnish artillery in Tali-Ihantala was so called "correction calculator", a small mechanical device not compeletely indifferent to for example quintant, or for some other (nautical) historical positioning devices, used first time in Tali-Ihantala in large scale.
    In effect, "correcton calculator" was the first device in WWII which gave opportunity to directly give targets and corrections to a weapon to a specific target without knowing the exact position of a specific gun controlled, with help of a clever relative positioning system.
    Thus, a single Finnish officer could simply, effectively and fast control (estimated Finnish artillery?) all of the +250 over 75 mm guns available and point them to a single target, without knowinf the positions of the guns he(unlikely she) controlled. Remember, that was in 1944, and AFAIK, this was the first time ever this device ( and method) was used. It effectively multiplied the power of Finnish artillery in the scale that it alone were almost enough to fail Soviet calculations of needed power.
    I've been told that there were sever discussions in Stavka why they were receiving something which felt like +1000 gun heavy artillery fire, as intelligence gave only 250. Actually, the intelligence were appx right with the number, what they missed were the existence and effect of that "correction calculator".

    But, that's just one more detail, among others. FYI: I've been always told that the artillery made Tali-Ihantala; Kuhlmey and new German antitank weapons were just cherries at the cake. There were tanks counted as MIA in Soviet statisicts after Tali-Ihantala. That's AFAIK not quite common term for a loss of a tank, but a concentration of fire this "correction calculator" made possible were enough to annihilate tanks in a way to be counted later as MIA.
     

Share This Page