The Dambusters raid: How effective was it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22510300

 

I'd say the home moral filip was worth the effort...On a par with Doolittle raids I'd say.

 

On a par for innovation and grand flying, yes, but the Doolittle Raid came scant months after the worst naval defeat of the war for the US and was far more important for moral on the homefront. I would have to say the Dambuster raid was strategically irrelevant, but the Doolittle raid, while negligible as a bombing, helped put into motion what became the turning point in the Naval war in the Pacific.

I have to admit though, for sheer daring do, few missions can match it.

 

Thats my point Belasar....Both raids in my own view...achieved little material damage..Certainly not to the extent the dam buster planners thought could happen...but the effect on homeland morale was and still is to this day..a boost far above its mission achievements of the time..The radio and following nespapers and cinema reels brought the attack home to the public and gave a moral boost far in excess of its achievements...so much so...we still hold both the raiders and the dambusters in awe...even on our forum.

 

I've thought quite hard about this over the years. Sadly, one has to conclude that in material terms, the Raid achieved much less than was expected. But one always has to remember the context of the times ; it was a massive fillip, not just to the UK population overall, but especially to the 'ordinary' ( a term I use reluctantly ) crews of Bomber Command who were suffering high losses and were feeling that their efforts were under-appreciated by the public and the 'top brass'. And it was a huge shock to the Germans ( cf Speer's memoirs ) that their defences could be penetrated in such a way. There's also little doubt that the high-profile nature of the Raid helped considerably with Allied-Soviet relations ( coming so soon after Stalingrad, when Stalin was constantly moaning that the Allies 'weren't doing enough'.

Personally, I've always thought that the Raid should have been followed up with Main Force atatcks to hinder rebuilding - but then, the losses may not have been worthwhile and I'm aware that this is 'armchair Air-Marshaldom'.

When all is said and done - and the arguments will probably intensify among 'revisionists' as soon as the last Dambuster has passed away - it was an almost unbelievable feat of flying. This was brought home vividly ten years ago when the UK's Channel 4 TV arranged a 'virtual recreation', using modern RAF crews who were used to GPS, SatNav etc.

Some of them actually had difficulty locating Germany.......................

 

And I know Martins too coy to put it up..but I'm not...Per ardua ad astra...Lest we forget..

http://youtu.be/VD9sd8s9V14

 

For those with concert band experience, here is the march based on the music from the early part of urqh's video. I have played this; it's a fun march for a euphonium player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K32Adi8nmzA

DaveBj

 

John Terraine in "Right of the Line" makes the point that they bombed the wrong targets, and were advised of it at the time. He also makes the point that Bomber Command was so self absorbed that it could be said that for a large part of the war they saw WW2 as irrelevant to their campaign - and vice versa.

If the aim was to cripple steel production, the Mohne and Sorpe were the two dams that mattered. The Eder dam was not part of the Ruhr water system. The crews which flew and were lost were from the bets of the RAF Bomber force and a similar operation in September against the Dortmund Ems canal cost them five out of eight aircraft.

Arguably the big success from the dams raid was pioneering the use of a master bomber and VHF radios for communication between aircraft.

 

I think it fair to point out that Terraine's assertions have been challenged by later historians such as Morris and Sweetman. It's something of a slut to say that the wrong targets were bombed ; the Mohne and Eder were , as far as the crews were concerned, correct targets on the night, as was the Sorpe ( which was hit, but due to the design of the dam the bomb was of little effect ).

Perhaps this is not the right thread to argue whether the 55,573 dead of Bomber Command considered WW2 to be irrelevant.

 

Who were you playing for mate..Not one of the RAF bands perhaps?...I've done my time marching to that tune...It never fails to make the cynics in the ranks of which I was one...stand straight shoulders back..march straight you buggers...

 

If they were the wrong targets...why bother with the immense cost and labour involved to rebuild the buggers before winter arrived...Equated to today's prices when Germany was busy elsewhere....I'd give the RAF this one...right targets...but no strategy on what to do afterwards....Per Ardua Ad Astra...Pilot of Z zebra is being honoured tomorrow in Willersley...A local village...I may attend. I hope to.

 

No, I wasn't lucky enough to do any playing while we were at C'ham. We read it a few years ago in the local community band. Didn't perform it; too many of the players weren't up to the task.

DaveBj

 

IIRC 617 sqn DID have another go at the Sorpe....but in 1945 I think, when they dropped something big right on the top of the dam again, can't remember if it was a Tallboy or Grand Slam tho'. The Sorpe required some repair work in the 1950s as a result...and only a few years ago had to be drained and the earlier repairs done over!

Just recently I saw a mention in passing of at least one small raid to hinder rebuilding, I just wish I could remember where!!!

 

Here's me being super-pedantic ; the Sorpe was indeed attacked with Tallboys on 15th October 1944 but not by 617 - the attack was carried out by 18 Lancasters of 9 Squadron. Al lto no avail ; Stephen Flower's definitive book 'Barnes Wallis' Bombs' states : ' the Sorpe was strong enough to resist anything Wallis could devise for it, and it stands to this day..' (p 248 ).

 

Some lovely pictures here of the Lancaster flying over the Derwent Valley Reservoir to mark the 70th Anniversary. Enjoy

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325460/Dambusters-Back-began-lone-Lancaster-marks-70-years-audacious-Dambusters-raid.html


Lesley

 

Ok, I'm the first to have a go at Daily Mail usually...but thats a great spread...Unless my mate Martin says otherwise....Cheers Lesley...

 

Stands? Yes...

Occasionally leaks VERY badly as a result of WWII damages? Also yes... They didn't do as badly as you might think!

It wasn't actually the strength of the Sorpe that saved it; I came across a lot of information on it some years ago when researching the Gatun Dam on the Panama Canal!

The Sorpe consisted on ONE large, vertical concrete wall...right down the middle of a pyramidal-section earth bank - "rammed earth" as it used to be called. Now, that sounds very ...fragile....plain old dirt - but it really only can be damaged by flowing water, which is why some rammed earth dams in California suffer from leaks, occasionally catastrophic leaks - cracks open up during earth tremors, and the water eats into them via the cracks.

The problem with doing really major damage to the Sorpe however was that the reinforcing wall down the very centre of the rammed earth bank is a very very small target...just a few metres across!

 

Quoting myself here...


An article I saw yesterday..but in last weeks Evesham Journal........I unfortunately was at hospital...found out much too late..

http://www.eveshamob...s-on-70514.html

 

I was reminded of last nights BBC2 program live on air at RAF Scampton on the anniversary...If you have BBC catchup its worth watching...

The RAF...masters of the understatemen...and better ceromonial planning than the guards could do...

Barnes Wallis' daughter...filled the screen with a sharp intake of breath that would melt the strongest heart...

The way the Lancaster suddenly had landed..band in position...between Spitfires and parked Tornadoes which moments earlier had been airborne in tribute...and playing the dambuster march....slowly behind them looms up the Lancaster to stop feet behind in pride of place...Marvellous stuff...

And for all the talk of today v yesterday technology with today's 617 sqn members...I note the hanger being closed as the standard was marched inside...best blue number one uniforms on all around...and one urqh..sorry erk..just in sight..bending down...turning a lever furiously to close hanger doors....No buttons then.....

Anyone who has ever worn the blue...would have felt the tingle...at that point...

Cynical as I can be about todays forces...Well Bloody done...Per Ardua Ad Astra.

http://youtu.be/8qawDkirUtA

 

Have to agree, Urqh......over at an aviation forum we all had to admit that it brought a tear to the eye. The programme started out rather shakily with some typically maladroit questioning by the BBC presenter but then what a very moving show the RAF put on ! As you say, the moment when the BBMF Lanc taxied up behind the band and shut down it's Merlins........well, you'd have to have a heart of stone..........