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The Japanese take Madagascar

Discussion in 'What If - Pacific and CBI' started by T. A. Gardner, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    You are supposed to be smarter than everyone else...

    Was it not Sun Tzu who said to avoid the enemy when he is stronger, and to strike him when he is weak or in disorder.

    Or do you not know who Sun Tzu was?


    Were they? Unfortunately, this is not demonstrated in their early naval night combat actions.

    1. During the pursuit of Force Z(Prince of Wales & Repulse): from combinedfleet.com's Chokai TROM


    2. During the Battle of Sunda Strait: Several Japanese torpedoes miss their intended targets and continue on to smash into the hulls of Japanese transports close to shore. While the American cruiser, USS Houston and the Australian cruiser HMAS Perth are eventually both sunk, several Japanese transports are sunk, eventually lost, or damaged by the errant IJN torpedoes.

    3. The Battle of Balikapapan: In a night action, 4 US destroyers get in amongst Japanese transports participating in the invasion of Balikapapan and sink 3 transports & 1 patrol boat, and damage a further 2 transports, before the Japanese escorts of a light cruiser and destroyers realize that they are there. The Japanese cruiser and destroyers gave chase but the American four-piper destroyers escape without incurring any damage.

    Seems that the "Masters at night combat" were quite the bunglers early on. This is one of the reasons why the Japanese were underestimated in the night actions of the Solomons campaign.


    Ummm....

    The British have no carriers in the this early in the Pacific War. HMS Indomitable only arrives in late January, having been diverted to pick up a load of Hurricanes and deliver them to Singapore. These were flown off to Sumatra on January 27, 1942. She would then transport aircraft to Ceylon in March, 1942. HMS Formidable does not arrive in theater until March 26, 1942. HMS Hermes was under refit in December & January, and then resumed convoy defense duties in February, 1942.

    As to Battleships, well we know the story of Prince of Wales & Repulse...But, HMS Warspite is undergoing overhaul & refit in the US in December, 1941, and will not arrive in Sydney, Australia until February 20, 1942. HMS Royal Sovereign does not arrive at Addu Atoll until January 26, 1942. After which, she is used for convoy escort in February & March. HMS Resolution does not arrive in Colombo, Ceylon until March 25, 1942. HMS Ramillies does not arrive in Colombo, Ceylon until March 2, 1942.

    Soooo...It looks like the British have no battleships or carriers, after the sinkings of Prince of Wales & Repulse, with which to contest the early Japanese landings.


    Another of Mjolnir's fantasies squashed...I swear this is starting to feel more like "Whack a Mole" than an intelligent discussion.

    Only about 12,000 Indians of some 40,000-45,000 Indians captured at Singapore joined the Japanese First Indian National Army.

    FYI, the First Indian National Army was nominally formed by the Japanese in February, 1942, with some 200 men, and then officially in April, 1942. It was quickly disbanded in December, 1942, after the Indian Army leaders and the Japanese had a falling out.
     
  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I just feel the need to post this...I don't know why.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0n8N98mpes
     
  3. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Sun Tsu would have laughed to death watching Churchill waste thousands of Canadians, Indians, Australians, Limeys, NZ, etc, pointlessly in Greece, Crete, HK, Burma, Sumatra, Java, etc, without enough, modern planes and tanks after he was trounced in Norway, Belgium, France by planes (despite Britain producing more planes than Germany and receiving tens of thousands from the US and Canada) and tanks. Tsu would have especially loved Winnie's and FDR's brilliant deployment of their huge, vaunted fleets (plus the Dutch fleet) against the upstart, poor IJN, resulting in spectacular trouncing.

    Tsu would pull his hear out trying to understand why Winnie attacked the neutral French fleet in Mers el Kebir (risking forcing France to join the axis), instead of wiping out the enemy, Italian fleet that night. Why Winnie wasted huge forces and resources raiding Dieppe and attacking neutral Dakar, Syria, Madagascar (6 months) and French N Africa and forced the allies to waste incredible shipping capacity supplying India, China, Egypt, the USSR (through Iran), etc, around S Africa, instead of promptly invading minute Pantelleria in 1940 and Sardinia in 1941 or 42 and liberating (with millions of Indians, Africans, etc, Burma in 1942, like FDR asked him to fo) or wasted a huge force fighting a few German divs in N Africa for years (which survived only thanks to British supplies and equipment, while Britain lost thousands of men, hundreds of planes and dozens of ships denying Rommel axis supplies). Why Winnie wasted a huge fleet just waiting for Tirpitz to sortie, instead of allowing it to sortie and simply sink her with subs, carrier and land based planes in Iceland, the Faroes, New foundland, etc,
    Most importantly, Tsu would find invading neutral remote, useless Madagascar for 6 months absurd, while invaluable Ceylon (much closer to Sumatra, the only reamining large producer of rubber and Cinnamon and the Key to the W IO, India, Burma and China) is defended by an African div, an Australian unit and a few Hurricanes and no fleet.

    Tsu would go crazy trying to understand why FDR wasted a large fleet and 16 planes to drop 15 tons all over Japan (the secondary theater), while he was losing ships by the dozen to U-boats for lack of escort in the Atlantic and Gulf (the primary theater of operation) for lack of escorts (which preculded the formation of convoys) and while he is preparing to fight Japanese carriers in Coral Sea with just 2 older CV than the 2 wasted in the raid. Or why FDR had a huge fleet laying at anchor and a large air force in PH and almost no fleet, planes, troops, etc, in the invaluable DEI-British Borneo, without whose oil Japan just couldn't fight. Or having 12 Wildcats and marines in untenable Wake, a large army in the PI which is doomed to fall piecemeal, simultaneously with the British and Dutch armies in Malaya-Bruma and the DEI, instead of abandoning the untenable Wake, PI, Malaya and Burma and reinforcing invaluable and most defensible Java and Sumatra (far from Japan and close to Ceylon and Perth) with a strong army, air force and navy.

    The funniest thing to Tsu would be the fact that the huge allied navy, army and air force considered themselves the underdogs, where in fact they had everything to defeat Japan in Java and Sumatra in 1942 (USN in the Pacific 8 BB, 21 cruisers, 60 DD, 3 CV, 2 plane tenders, USAAF, 30 subs, etc, the RN in the IO and Pacific also had several capital ships, CV, CVE, cuisers, etc even the Dutch navy had 16 subs, 4 CLs, 7 DD, the RAN and RNZN also had valuable assets. The air forces in Wake, Hawaii, the PI and Malaya were extremely strong, but they were destroyed in the first days by large numbers of planes from Formosa, carriers, Indochina and the Marshalls, which could not happen, had they been deployed in Java). The Japanese army had dismal tactics (suicidal charges against MG) and extremely poor logistics (as in the case of Rommel, Yamashita could not have survived w/o generous British supplies), so they simply could not fight efficiently against an entrenched, well supplied and reinforced force (as in Guadalcanal). The huge allied plane production would have devastated Japanese aviation over Java and warships, especially as ever increasing numbers of P-38, Wildcats, Beaufighter B-17, 24, 25 and 26 and crated P-40 and Spitfires arrive in Java. The 8 old BB would be etremely useful repelling invasion fleets with heavy air cover
     
  4. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I'm laughing myself to death at your wasting four long paragraphs that simply restate your fantasies, and do nothing to disprove my counter-points.
     
  5. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    lwd,
    After Ceylon and Mauritius the Maldives and Diego Garcia (British Indian Ocean Territories, defended by a few Royal marines with a coastal battery) will be invaluable bases for H6K, etc, and for axis subs, merchant raiders, etc,

    Java was a much toughter nut to crack and the A-B-D navy and air force were trounced and the large island fell in days, despite much weaker land force and support than suggested for Ceylon.

    Perhaps you also think that Mauritius, Maldives and Diego Garcia are also impossible to invade, because they are defended by a few isolated men, backed by a formidable naval power, which can easily trounce the Japanese with night Swordfish and Albacore. The funniest thing is that this thread was started because some people believed that the Japanese could invade and supply a large force in extremely distant and huge Madagascar, very close to Kenya and S Africa. Very much harder to invade and supply than Ceylon and much less valuable.
     
  6. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Wait. I thought you just said the H6K weren't good for anything?
     
  7. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Stupid is indeed strong with that one.
     
  8. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I believe he specified that the H6Ks were wasted flying reconnaissance missions...You know, finding the locations of those pesky American carrier task forces. And, that the H6Ks would be better served if used to land Japanese troops at some remote lake or reservoir on an island that, not only is relatively useless to the Japanese, but, he has amassed such an overwhelming Japanese invasion force, so as to make the H6Ks inclusion utterly irrelevant.

    I wish I could explain more, but that would require massive amounts of recreational drug usage, and all I have is caffeine and nicotine.
     
  9. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Using extremely scarce, expensive and visible H6K to locate carriers is about as suicidal as using U-boats in 1944. Wasting 2 of them to bomb Hawaii (revealing the refueling area) was moronic. Using them to land troops, locate and attack submarines, locate cargo ships, battleships, cruisers, etc, makes sense.
     
  10. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Can you get anything even remotely close to correct? Operation K was conducted with H8K, not H6K.

    Doctrinally, ALL major naval powers used flying boats for long-range fleet reconnaissance. PBY, Sunderland, H6K, BV 222, He 115, and etc.
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    But, early on, it was not suicidal, both American radar and fighter direction capabilities were immature. It would be mostly suicidal by 1944. So your point here really does not hold water.



    No...Moronic was the plan to use some 30 H8Ks to bomb oil fields in Texas, even more moronic was the plan to use H8Ks, refuelling from U-Boats, to attack cities on the East Coast.

    And as Rich points out it was H8Ks...The H6Ks lacked the necessary range.


    Using H6Ks to land troops is, admittedly, pretty moronic, given how few they could carry - total waste of space, planes, and reconnaissance pilots.

    Attacking submarines was done, but was often left to smaller aircraft.

    Locating the other miscellaneous ships and warships goes lock step with locating US carriers, it was part of their general tasks for long range reconnaissance work.
     
  12. green slime

    green slime Member

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    No, no, no. Don't you understand? You send the H[6|8]K's to do reconnaissance, but to deliberately not look for Aircraft carriers.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    The H6K, subs, U-boats, merchant raiders (IJN and KM), etc, are deployed from Diego Garcia, Mauritius, Maldives, etc, in late April 1942 whrere there are hundreds of merchant ships and dozens of DD, CL, etc, escorting them, for every carrier which can shoot down an H6K. As I wrote, the raid on Ceylon caused the RN carriers, BB, etc, to hide in Kenya. Therefore the fall of Ceylon, the Maldives, Mauritius and Diego Garcia will chase RN carriers (including those OTL deployed off Madagascar for months) from the Indian Ocean.
     
  14. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Wow. Just wow. You may want to reconsider your meds after that bit of circularity. So "hundreds of merchant ships" escort the "H6K, subs, U-boats, merchant raiders (IJN and KM), etc"? Seriously?
     
  15. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Again going out of your way. Chill out and read several times, trying to understand, instead of striving to get everything wrong.
    The paragraph clearly states that there are hundreds of cargo ships and DD, etc, escorting them for every carrier capable of attacking an H6K in the W IO, so I am clearly talking about the allies. H6K are a lot more useful finding merchant ships and directing axis subs and merchant raiders to them in the IO, than bombing Hawaii or being shot down by carriers or by planes from Midway, etc,
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Gomer...You understand nothing. Further, you do not have to even try to get everything wrong...It comes naturally to you.

    Your sentence structure is atrocious, and you then have the gall to blame us for your failure...Pathetic.



    Gomer, do you realize how many of the I-Boats, at the beginning of the war, carried their own aircraft? Do you realize how many of the Japanese armed merchant cruisers carried their own aircraft? Apparently not...Or else you would not have made such a brainless statement. Neither the submarines, nor the armed merchant cruisers need or require the H6K to be their "eyes in the sky."

    Further, you do not realize how ineffective Japanese submarines and armed merchant cruisers truly were.

    Let me clue you in...The beginning of Operation Drumbeat puts 5 U-Boats off the American East Coast and they proceed to sink some 25 ships for about 157,000 tons. The Imperial Japanese Navy puts roughly double that number, 9, of their I-Boats off the American West Coast shortly after Pearl Harbor...Their bag? About 5 ships for a little over 30,000 tons. You see the Germans had learned, through combat experience, how to hunt merchants with their submarines. Meanwhile, the Japanese submariners were nothing but rank amateurs still relying on their pre-war training.

    Please go back to World War II kindergarten and learn the basics.
     
  17. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    I-boat and merchant raider single engine planes have a very short range and endurance (and most I.boats did not have planes in April 1942). These short range planes cannot tell the ships in what direction to sail from base or in what direction to sail towarad a convoy a long distance from the base, boat or ship. H6K based in Diergo Garcia,, Maldives, Mauritius have excellent endurance and can detect a convoy much further than the small monoplanes or even than the Catalina (which the British had in Ceylon) and the US in Midway.

    For example an H6K in Mauritius can detect a convoy or single ship over 1,500 km away and vector subs, ships, G3M, etc, far from the convoy or base to the convoy. If it is a single cargo ship it can sink it with torpedoes or vector other vessles or planes to capture or sink her.

    The Japanese were so ineffective, precisely because they did not use long range planes to guide them, like the Germans did with the Condors nor wolf packs tactics, which they would certainly have adopted, had they interacted constantly with U-boats from Mauritius, etc,

    It is not that the Germans had learnt a lot, it is that the Americans wasted their ships in the Dollitle raid and kept their cities illuminated, so there were no escorts for hundreds of ships in the W coast. Traffic and number of cities in the W coast were ridiculous, compared to the American E coast or to the W IO.
     
  18. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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  19. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Gomer, gomer, gomer...You know not what you talk about. Let's examine your idiocy shall we.


    First, there were some 26 I-Boats that carried aircraft and, if my count is correct, 25 that did not. Or are you including the shorter ranged RO type submarines in your total?

    Second, yes, the submarine/AMC aircraft do have a shorter range. However, you are presuming that the submarine or AMC is sitting at the dock...That's pretty idiotic, don't you think. The submarines and AMCs would be out on their assigned patrol stations...Not sitting tied to a dock. Now, if those patrol stations happen to be more than 1,500 nautical miles from the airbase...Well then, those "short ranged" aircraft are already beyond the operational limit of the H6K.


    Gomer, it is barely 1,500 nautical miles, not kilometers. But, if you want the shorter range, so be it. Fuel supplies will likely be at a premium and it will save on wear-and-tear on the engines and other H6K components - replacement parts have to come all the way from Japan.

    And as I have stated earlier in this post, it is idiotic to assume that the I-Boat will be operating so close to home.


    That is a really idiotic statement to moake considering that the Atlantic is a puddle compared to the Pacific. Even more idiotic considering that the I-Boats were operating well outside the range of the H6K.

    The Americans never really took to wolfpack tactics either and were phenomenally successful...The German success lay not in their wolfpacks, but in how the individual boats hunted.

    Further, the Monsoon U-Boats do not begin to arrive until late-1943, and are not going to be of much help.


    Thats another of your idiotic know-nothing statements to make given the facts in evidence.
     
  20. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    I stated that H6K can redirect subs, ships and planes a long ways from them, whether they are at the base or in mid ocean. Single engine planes cannot do that.
    Again in April 1942 most I-boats do not have planes, care to bet?

    I´ll continue to report you if you continue insulting me and referring to me as Gomer.

    Nobody considered the Atlantic a puddle. I referred specifically to the E coast traffic and city lights, in relation to W coast traffic and city lights, Completely different ball parks. I can add that the Japanese subs are operating further from base than the U-boats, so resupplying them is more difficult and they have less combat time. Moreover, battleships, etc, are escorting ships in the W coast in the spring of 1942, but not in the E coast (while a strong fleet participates in the absurd Doolittle raid, despite priority being in the Atlantic).

    The Americans definitely used wolfpack tactics and long range planes to guide them and to lay mines, forcing ships into the subs' hunting ground.
    I shan't answer your future posts, but I shall continue reporting offensive posts.
     

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