Discussion in 'Post War 1945-1955' started by Greg Taylor, Apr 1, 2010.
The links were listed, read them yourself. Then make your points.
Point 1 is the figure of 2 million is an invention of Beevor.
Point 2 is the claim only in the Soviet army were they officially urged to do it (by Russian radio propagandists). is false because the 'propagandist' said it at the time of Stalingrad (not Berlin) and it was not even about rape.
The 'propagandist' in question was Ehrenburg
But the Germans never really raped Russians they probably been executed for it.
Do you have a source for this statement?
No but common sense the Germans are always raving that Russians were sub-humans and all that other crap why would they encourage them to rape russains.It dosent make any sense does it?
It doesn't matter if it "makes sense". Statements like this need some kind of objective source, otherwise we could make any outrageous statement we want and it would be as valid as true historical research. Please refrain from making unsubstantiated statements since we try to be accurate in our postings.
Axis History Forum • View topic - Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?
Please direct your attention to Albert Seaton's, The Russo-German War, 1941-1945, pages 543-544.
Seaton clearly states that Russian "propaganda was intensified and as an act of policy the troops were told that personal property and German women were theirs by right and they were not accountable by law for civiil crime committed in Germany." He goes on to discuss the possible reasons for this policy.
Of additional interest is Seaton's assessment of the apologists who seek to justify the actions of the Russian soldiers. He does not specifically mention "deniers," but his comments would surely be equally applicable.
Perhaps you could be so good as to give us the wording of the propagandists?
Does he provide the texts or just mention them in passing?
The points in question:
First the 'propaganda' tracts.
Once you post them then we can see for ourselves.
The other is the rape numbers.
Perhaps Seaton gives a 2 million figure and thus can verify Beevors invention?
You have been provided with a source that discredits those who seek to apologize for [or deny] the atrocities committed in Germany by the Russian Army.
Refutation of this source is your responsiblity, not mine. Nor am I required to provide the author's sources for your examination.
If you wish to refute the source I've cited, then have at it.
Your inability to provide the 'propaganda texts' says it all.
It would seem Seaton is making the mistake of thinking Ehrenburg's Stalingrad texts were written in 1945 for Berlin. It is an old book from 1971!
You would think an old Tanker/Researcher like yourself would be more forthcoming............
Here is another source.
Major General John J. Maginnis, Military Government Journal: Normandy To Berlin.
In his chapter on Berlin, MG Maginnis makes several references to the rapes, attempted rapes, murders, and robberies committed by Russian soldiers within the area controlled by the US Army. In several instances the Russian soldiers opened fire on American MPs, or officers, actions that resulted in gun battles which often left the Russian transgressors dead or wounded. The author also records that these problems stemmed from an official or unofficial turning of a blind eye to these activities within the Russian controlled zone, and the difficulty in getting his Russian counterparts to understand they were not allowed in the American zone.
You seem to be missing the point. All Armies raped. The US Army even had a problem with it.
Taken by Force: Rape and American GIs in Europe During World War II: Amazon.co.uk: J.Robert Lilly: Books
"Using several calculation methods familiar to sociologists and criminologists, from the cases reported, Mr. Lilly asserts that members of the American forces raped about 1,500 women in Great Britain, 3,500 in France and 12,000 in Germany. In France the first rape took place on June the 14th 1944, just 8 days after the Normandy landing"
I presume British/French records would reveal more sordid cases.
What we are after here are the Soviet 'propaganda texts' that encouraged their troops to specifically commit rape.
So far we have seen references to these 'propaganda texts' but not a single checkable instance nor even the wording of one of the elusive 'texts'.
They seem to be as well known as the Loch Ness Monster but not as well documented!
Sorry m Kenny, you make some good points, but this is not a thread about rapes committed in France by American soldiers or in Berlin by the Soviets. Once again this is about the city of Stuttgart ONLY. Other threads about the topics you mention do exist on the forum. If this is turning sour and off topic, I'm afraid I would have to close this thread.
Of course it´s a matter of "taste" whether this is called "rape them" or not...If a person is your booty I guess you are according to these words allowed to do whatever you wish. And he certainly does not say that you should, as a Red Army soldier, treat the German women with dignity,on the contrary.
"Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty.Kill!"
Ilya Ehrenberg - The Man Who Invented The 'Six Million'
The original Ehrenburg article was published in the “Red Star” on 07.24.1942.
This was when Russia was fighting for her life and not a single female German was under any threat.
Even Beevor confirmed the claims were a Nazi invention:
Ilya Ehrenburg's own mesmerizing calls for revenge on Germany in his articles in the Red Army newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star) had created a huge following among the frontoviki, or frontline troops. Goebbels responded with loathing against 'the Jew Ilya Ehrenburg, Stalin's favourite rabble-rouser'. The propaganda ministry accused Ehr¬enburg of inciting the rape of German women. Yet while Ehrenburg never shrank from the most bloodthirsty harangues, the most notorious statement, which is still attributed to him by western historians, was a Nazi invention. He is accused of having urged Red Army soldiers to take German women as their 'lawful booty' and to 'break their racial pride'. 'There was a time,' Ehrenburg retorted in Krasnaya Zvezda, `when Germans used to fake important documents of state. Now they have fallen so low as to fake my articles.'
The linked site in the post above shows what it is really about in this extract:
After the war he joined with co-racial and fellow propagandist Vasily (Iosif Solomonovich) Grossman to produce a fictitious "Black Book" and lay the foundation for what has come to be known as "The Holocaust."**
** For an overview of this historical fiction, see The Hoax of the Twentieth Century by Prof. Arthur Butz, the 506-page, illustrated revisionist classic, available for $25 from NS Publications
one of these days, when the military male extracts his head from his arse, he's going to realise that the military female is the mother of all things beastly when it comes to the sharp end of military service.
When we finally give this last bastion of male domination over to the girls, we will find that they make far more ferocious soldiers than we ever knew how to be. Frank Herbert has predicted this in his "Dune" science fiction series, that military organisations of women will outperform male organisations in the future, and without the need for rape.
My wife has just given birth without the assistance of drugs or painkilling gas of any kind. From the first contraction to the moment our daughter popped out, she did it all in TWO HOURS. Four hours later, she wanted to take our child out of that hospital and home where she felt safe and sound. One can only stand in awe of such a performance and see in the minds eye here Maori ancestors strapping their newborns to their back before moving on to the next Pa (Fort), still with bloodstains on their legs, pumped up with estrogen and other hormonal endorphins....
When we, as males, finally realise that women will make far better soldiers than we ever knew how to be, it will change human society and the way it's organised forever. Meantime, the male bastion of military service goes on.
With all respect for the fighting ability of the female of the species any society that puts the child bearers in the front lines is not likely to last long. Males are expendable, females are not, even in our days of widespread birth control this remains true. But while I agree that there is nothing more fearsome than a member of the gentler sex out for blood, ferocity and resistance to pain are not the most important qualities of a soldier.
Back to the thread, IMO while isolated episodes are nearly inevitable entire units "going on rampage" were not common, I don't believe any army encouraged mass rape, for the simple reason that it's terrible for discipline and it may take days to get your units back in any fighting shape, not a good thing when motorization means a counterattack is always a possibility even when local organized resistance has broken down and even for an occupation army having your troops go "combat ineffective" is not a good thing.
Here is another source which provides information on the Russian policy of rape, plunder, and pillage against the Germans and those helped them.
Rear Area Security in Russia: The Soviet Second Front Behind German Lines, Pamphlet No. 20-240, July 1951.
The pamphlet describes the easy with which Soviet leaders were able to penetrate behind German lines to communicate with, and direct, the numerous, armed partisan organizations that operated there. Little was done by the organizations without official orders or sanctions. Among their regular activities was the pillaging and plundering villages and communities that aided the Germans. This problem was so serious that the Germans organized and armed local militias in an effort to protect those who were cooperative.
So we have yet another example of officially sponsored Soviet revenge and retribution of the nature under discussion.
Does anyone else see a pattern here?
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