I am finding a number of conflicting sources on the total number of men that served in the U.S. military during WW2 both online and in print (not peak, but total served during course of war). Most seem to put the total at 16 or 16.2 million, but this total seems too large based on the individual service peak numers and does not seem to add up, while several others peg it at a little over 13 million, and give the numbers as follows: 8,300,000 Army (including Army Air Force, AGF, and ASF) 4,204,662 Navy 599,693 Marines 173,952 13,277,307 total This seems to tie to a number of peak numbers for each armed service, and that suggests to me these may be peak numbers instead of total served as advertised. But U.S. killed or discharged due to wounds would not add an additional 3 million to get to 16 million (I would think at most 1 million, including KIA/DOW). The one source that cited 16 million, gave the individual components as follows: 11.2 million Army, 4.2 million Navy, and 600,000 Marines. The Marine and Navy numbers are consistent with the figures I have seen for 13.2 million, but the Army number is much larger at 11.2 million. But when I look at peak numbers in the Green Book series (Organization of Ground Combat Troops), I see that the army (including Army Air Force, AGF, and ASF) peaked at about 8.2 million. While I can imagine there was another million in KIA and MIA and discharged because of serious wounds, I can't understand how that number gets to 11.2 million. Perhaps the 16 million figure includes stateside defense volunteers or auxilaries? I am also finding inconsistent figures cited for number drafted and volunteered. Some sources say 6 million volunteered and other 5 million. Some have 10 million inducted (drafted and not volunteered) while others say 11.5 million. I have found a couple of places that break the numbers down by year, and it appears the total adds up to 9 million drafted 1940-45, and 10 million if you count 1946 too. A number of sources, including the National WW2 Museum's website give the following figures: 11,535,000 (61.2%) Americans were drafted. 6,332,000 (38%) Americans volunteered. But the percentages cited don't match the absolute numbers (and would result in total served at 17.8 million)! Any suggestions/thoughts would be appreciated!
What might account for it, and would be nice to know stuff is the definitive answer to this: The ratio of service personnel to armed forces fighting strength. http://askville.amazon.com/American-soldiers-involved-World-War-II/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=1425000
The figure of 8.3 million in the U.S. Army (i.e., Army Air Force, Army Ground Forces, and Army Service Forces) includes support, adminsistrative, replacements, unassigned, and overhead--everyone in the U.S. Army. So if the peak was 8.3 million, I don't see how there could have been 11.2 million total to serve in the U.S. Army given the number of U.S. Army casualties. (The Army's "Organization of Army Ground Troops" gives this level of detail as of certain dates.) And if there weren't 11.2 million in the U.S. Army, then the 16 million total number does not make sense.
I am beginning to suspect that the difference between the 13 million served and 16 million served numbers, is that the 16 million is double counting inductee (draftees) who subsequently volunteered. Evidently the Navy and Marines (don’t know about the Army yet) allowed draftees/inductees to, after initial induction at a service center, choose enlistment instead, in which case such person would count on their records as both an inductee (they were inducted) and as an enlistee (they subsequently enlisted). If you look at the U.S. Navy personnel numbers on the webpage www.history.navy.mil/library/online/ww2_statistics.htm, you will see the following information: * * * The number of officers and enlisted personnel that served in the Navy during World War II. 7 Dec 1941 - 31 Dec 1946 was 4,183,466 (390,037 officers and 3,793,429 enlisted) Volunteers and Draftees in WWII: Total enlistments, 12/1/41 to 12/31/46: 3,793,429 Total inducted into Navy, prior 12/31/46: 1,549,285 (of those inducted, 189,365 remained inductees; 1,359,920 voluntarily enlisted as USN-SV or USNR-SV) * * * So while 1,549,285 were inducted, almost all those inducted (except 189,365) enlisted. The enlisted number includes almost all men included in the inducted number, as well as the volunteers. I.e., approximately 4.3 million men served in the Navy, and not 5.3 million (the sum of inductees and enlistees). I am beginning to suspect that the 16 million served number is derived from 10 million drafted and 6 million volunteers (sometimes cited as 5 million volunteered), but that 2-3 million of the volunteers were already inductees. This would also answer another puzzle I was trying to understand: given that the U.S. stopped accepting volunteers who of draft age (18-38 years old) in December 1942, how could the U.S. possibly have processed 5 or 6 million volunteers between 12/41 and 12/42, in addition to the 3.3 million drafted in that time period? The total military personnel between 12/41 and 12/42 did not go up 8-9 million in that period. Further, while 17 year olds and age 38+ could volunteer after 12/42, from partial numbers I have seen for 17 year olds, the aggregate number of volunteers post-12/42 had to be under 500,000. But if you assume 2-3 million volunteers before 12/42, with almost all going to the Navy and Marines (the Navy and Marines took only volunteers until 12/42), and you assume the draftees in that period all went to the Army, then those numbers are in the right ballpark. However, that would mean total true volunteers were really 2-3 million (i.e., the volunteers who volunteered before being inducted). Obviously I may be missing something and welcome comment. If this is correct, then it is disturbing how often the 16 million number is used, and that it is often cited that 6 million “volunteered” (confusing/mixing enlistment after induction with volunteering as a civilian).
This begs a question. Of the major combatants , out of their total number served what percent were in combat? I would guess that the US had a lower percent in combat as the logistics system seems of a high order but in truth I have no information on this? Anyone posted on this or know the answer ?
In part it depends how you define in combat. For example, a minority of any infantry division were front line soldiers meant to directly engage the enemy--there was artillery, engineers, signals, QM, etc. But here are some numbers for the U.S. Army (which includes the Army Airforce) from page 70 of "The Organization of Ground Combat Troops", one of the official U.S. Army histories: Mobilized Aggregate Strength of Army, by Mission, March 31, 1945 Mission AAF AGF ASF Miscellaneous Total Combat 376,660 1,968,500 0 0 2,345,160 Combat Support 343,979 238,682 26,859 0 609,520 Combat Service Support 199,761 450,163 27,765 0 677,689 Service Support 305,721 5,994 1,148,792 0 1,460,507 Training 327,191 342,300 47,560 211,074 928,125 Overhead 737,261 130,948 376,665 190,272 1,435,146 Miscellaneous 0 11,250 16,500 329,422 357,172 Total 2,290,573 3,147,837 1,644,141 730,768 7,813,319 AAF is Army Air Force, AFG is Army Ground Forces, and ASF is Army Service Forces. Combat Support refers to certain engineer and signal units, military police and other units. I assume Combat Service Support is probably QM/supply at the field army and army group and below level, while zone of interior units are all Service Support. Here is similar information for the U.S. Army spliced a littler differently from page 191 of the same source: 30-Apr-45 Divisions 1,194,569 Nondivisional Combat (less AAA) 779,882 Antiaircraft Artillery (AAA) 259,403 Total Ground Combat Forces 2,233,854 Nondivisional Service 1,638,214 Replacements 841,715 Overhead and Miscellaneous 1,269,709 Total Army (less Air) 5,983,492 Army Air Forces 2,307,501 Total Army 8,290,993 Note that the U.S. and the United Kingdom had a much higher percentage of support than other combatants as both militaries were built to project most of their forces far from their home country; there were a lot of books written about the "tooth to tail" ratios in the U.S. army as compared to the USSR army during the Cold War. Here is some information on the Navy from www.history.navy.mil/library/online/ww2_statistics.htm: An estimated 3,639,615 (87%) of Navy Personnel served overseas and in all probability were exposed to combat. Number serving ashore outside U.S. on 21 Jul 45 543,284 Number serving afloat outside U.S. on 21 Jul 45 1,565,898 Number serving ashore U.S. on 31 Jul 45 1,296,343
Another source of discrepencies especially between total indcuted and greatest strength could be from those who washed out of boot camp or were found medially unable. Was the 173K number in the first post Coast Guard? There has been a tendency in recent years to include the Merchant Marine in some counts. As they actually lost a higher percentage of people in combat than the armed services this has some validity. Note that how initial numbers are counted and exactly what dates are used may also impact the numbers.
>>Note that how initial numbers are counted and exactly what dates are used may also impact the numbers. Good point and agreed. For example, with respect to date range, the draft induction number that all sources agree on is 10,110,104, but that is measuring from the commencement of the draft in 10/1940 through the end of 1946. If you limit to the end of the war it is about 9.6 million, and if you start with Pearl Harbor (instead of the institution of the draft) then it is under 9 million. Also, the regular army/navy may be being treated as volunteer in the 16 million figure (I don't know), as they did volunteer, just before the war. >>Another source of discrepencies especially between total indcuted and greatest strength could be from those who washed out of boot camp or were found medially unable. This appears to have happened at the "classification" stage after being drafted but prior to induction. All persons found to be unfit, where classified as such and were never inducted. It gets confusing becomes references to the 10 million that were draft inducted from 10/1940 through 1946, are often simply referred to as "drafted". But a much larger number were called in for classification and were never inducted whether because of being physically unfit, deferred for essential industry, or having dependents. Once inducted in WW2, you generally did not "wash out". >>Was the 173K number in the first post Coast Guard? Yes
Australa had approx 7 million people at the outbreak of hostilities...we sent over (Europe and Asia) 993 000 Aussies...almost one in seven...16 million is also an awesome effort...
OK, I found definitive answers to the discrepencies I was pointing out, and the explanations involve a combination of the things lwd suggested may be the case. First, all the Statistical Abstracts put out by the Commerce Department for 1894-1994 are located online in this directory: www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/ and have detailed information about aggregate military personnel and expenditures and the civilian economy. The 1956 Statistical Abstract (www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/1956-05.pdf) on page 237 gives the 16.1 million number for total men and woman who served in WW2 in the U.S. military (army, navy and marines only), including 11.2 million in the army (which includes army airforce). However, as noted in the abstract, the U.S. government defines someone as having served in WW2 and as a US veteran if they were on active duty at any time between 12/7/41 and 12/31/46. So the period they measure includes 19 months after Germany surrendered and 16 months after Japan surrendered. Footnote 7 and page 237 gives the total numbers for those who served between 12/1/41 and 8/30/45: Army 10,420,000 Navy 3,883,520 Marines 599,693 Total 14,903,213 So 14.9 million (or a little over 15 million if you include the coast guard) is the correct measure as far as those who served while the U.S. was at war. As we know the total draft inductions were 9,837,610 through 12/30/45 (10,110,114 through 12/31/46), a little over 5 million volunteered (verifying the 10 million drafted and 5 million volunteered numbers that are cited less commonly than the 10 million drafted and 6 million volunteered numbers). However, note that included in the volunteer category are about 785,000 soldiers/sailors/airmen who were either active duty or in the national guard, army reserve, naval reserve, or marine reserve. These men all volunteered and in many cases knowing a war may be likely, but I think it useful to distinguish in order to understand the flow of men into the military. About 4.4 million voluntered after Pearl Harbor, and presumably most of these men volunteered in the 12 months after Pearl Harbor before December 1942, because in early December 1942 by executive order of the President volunteers were no longer accepted in the military who were of draft age (the military wanted to prevent volunteers from selectively choosing their service and believed that volunteering was mucking up the orderly process of the draft). While 17 year olds could still volunteer with parental consent and men 38+ (older than draft age) could also still volunteer, presumably these numbers are low. For example, the Marine had 58,000 17 year old volunteers starting in 1943 (following the ban on volunteers of draft age) through the end of the war. So likely around 4.2 million volunteered in the 12 months following Pearl Harbor. More than half of the men who volunteered were already registered for the draft (though not yet drafted), and the rest had not yet been registered. I still would like to see official numbers on how many volunteered each year (like we have for draft inductions), but I have not been able to find any. Given 3 million men were also drafted in 1942, it is hard for me to imagine the military taking in about 7.2 million new recruits all in 1942, but that appears to be the case. As to the difference between the total number who served and the peak number in each service, in particular the army, I believe I also found an explanation. First, using the 15 million served instead of 16 million served helps with the difference, but there is still a 2 million difference in the army alone between peak (around 8.4 million) and total served (10.4 million). I knew that around 300,000 army personnel died in WW2 (both in action and of other causes), but when I also factored in POWs and men sent back to the states due to wounds, I had an explanation for 600,000 of the 2 million difference. And now I think I have the explanation for the remaining 1.4 million difference: Excluding soldiers who recovered sufficiently to return to duty, the U.S. Army would ultimately discharge from the service some 50,520 men for nonbattle injuries in combat zones (such as loading accidents), 312,354 for combat-related psychiatric breakdowns, and 862,356 soldiers for diseases contracted during the war. This covers an additional 1.2 million men discharged, and only leaves a remaining gap 200,000 (i.e., total = peak - discharges/deaths). After accounting for deaths, the Navy has a gap of 445,000 and the Marines 100,000, but presumably both are explained by discharges for disease/combat-related breakdowns. The 862,356 seems extremely high for a force of 10.4 million--I wonder what portion is trench foot and V.D.
862,356 isn't necessarily that high a number, as an example, virtually the entire 1st Marine Division was down with malaria after Guadalcanal and a good portion of the 2d division. Most recovered to some degree, some didn't. Many suffered multiple relapses. Troops were exposed to a number of exotic or common diseases that they had no or little natural immunity to once deployed. Even in training once large numbers of people are forced to live in close proximity, communicable diseases, they were not previously exposed to, run rampant. Simple things like measles and meningitis. Meningitis is/was such a problem that they now vaccinate all new inductees prior to shipping to bootcamp. The vaccine is also required by many colleges of incoming freshmen, so there is a potential problem. Some other conditions you may not be considering but are common and would result in discharge are frostbite and severe heat injuries. These would be classified under injuries and not illness. A serious heat injury can result in brain injury or death, but more commonly results in the bodies loss of ability to readily regulate heat, so once someone has one of these injuries they are more prone to it in the future and would probably be discharged. This is a very common training injury. Another common training injury is knees. LWD also gave you a good reason that you dismissed when he wrote: "Another source of discrepencies especially between total indcuted and greatest strength could be from those who washed out of boot camp or were found medially unable." In addition to some of the diseases and injuries, (some of which I just mentioned) other diseases and injuries occurring during training would make someone unusable for military service. During classification and the initial medical exams only certain things can be detected, others are missed or often hidden by the enlistee. Under the physical and mental stress of training these conditions are commonly exposed. They are still missed today, even though medicine has greater capabilities. Recruits/trainees with mental problems are normally exposed when they are subjected to the stress of training. Undetected heart problems. I'm sure there were a lot of these when Rheumatic fever was more common. As anyone here that has had children, can attest, strep is rampant in school age children. Now, we have simple tests for strep and anti-biotics to treat it. Back in the day strep often went undetected, and untreated, certain strep strains progress into rheumatic fever with the attendant cardiac damage. Just a month ago a friend of mine had a son undergoing recruit training, one of his fellow recruits died while being quarterdecked due to an undiagnosed heart valve condition. Sheetz happens. The point is, initial military training both basic/recruit and advanced individual are there to stress the trainees physically and mentally and to weed out those unfit for military service. By dismissing LWD's comment you are missing a real and substantial source of discharges due to mental and physical conditions.
Regarding the 862,000 disease discharge figure, the quote I had seen listed 387,00 neuro-pschiatric discharges and 862,000 disease discharges as separate categories, but when I traced the information back to the source material referenced in the footnote, I saw that the author made a mistake and that the 862,000 number captures all non-battle discharges, including neuro-psychiatric. Here are the total separation numbers for the army during WW2 from “Medical Statistics in World War II” by the Medical Department, U.S. Army, 1975 (www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a286758.pdf): 992,988 total Disability Separations, consisting of: *Invalided from Wounds in Combat – 108,114 *Neuro-Psychiatric – 387,485 *Disease - 467,562 *Accidents 29,827 This report also show about 99,000 administrative discharges due to inaptitude, unfitness, or dishonorable discharge), however, the following publication (which has similar disability discharge numbers) has much higher Administrative Separations, listing them at 195,847, and providing greater detail on when they occurred, so I would tend to believe the 195,847 administrative separations number: history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/NeuropsychiatryinWWIIVolI/chapter9.htm When you also take into account the 306,005 deaths (combat, non-combat, and died from wounds), the 114,558 POWs, and the 1,204 MIA, and add those numbers to the 992,988 disability separations and 195,847 administrative separations, you get approximately 1.6 million, which helps explain most of the difference between 10.4 million who served in the army during the war and the peak active number during the war at 8.3 million, but still leaves 500,000 unaccounted for. Are there other things that would result in a man or woman who was active no longer being counted as active other then separation from the service, death, capture, or MIA?
Agreed, but those men who were inducted or enlisted should be represented in the approximately 1.2 million disability and administrative separations I just listed in my above post. Those who failed the initial medical screening (which some sources list as being 38%) were not inducted/enlisted and never counted as being in the army, but if they washed out later then that should show up in the above discharge numbers.
Yes it was considering how small and poorly equipped the pre-war Army was in the 30s. Of course having two oceans to hide behind while expanding helped a lot too.
No hiding in WW2...I cant even begin to imagine the work needed to equip and move 16 million soldiers and everything they need...I bet world records were broken on a daily basis...(The most forms in one day, the biggest shipments, longest logistics trail in history...that sort of stuff) as i said...awesome.