Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

what if the Spanish and Turks agreed to help Hitler

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by yan taylor, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. yan taylor

    yan taylor Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    559
    Likes Received:
    36
    Hi, I allways thought about the concept of the Spanish and Turkish Goverments had lent more towards the Nazi cause like Musolini did would the war had been changed, would the thought of German and Spanish troops assauting Gibralta and North Africa and Turkish involment in Southern Russianwould have had a big impact ?, I know some Spanish troops (the Blue Legion) served with the Germans, but what if both countries had got fully involed and sent major forces to assist the Axis on a big scale.
     
  2. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    8,515
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    Compared to Hitler's other European allies both Spain and Turkey had military's that were extreamly weak, with very limited modern equipment. Thier only real advantage was location, they could offer access to targets outside of Germany's reach. The problem was Germany was extreamly streched for troops to send off on new targets. Also it would provide the Allies/Russia other lightly defended axis of attack thereby forcing the Reich to further stretch thier army to defend even more ground since niether Spain or Turkey could defend themselves.
     
  3. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Messages:
    9,768
    Likes Received:
    3,227
    Good answer belasar...The Germans had to often "go back" to strengthen or even take over Italian campaigns....They were more a liability...except maybe to keep the allies temporarily occupied whilst they looked to another area. I think the Spanish and Turkish forces would have provided the same "false" alliance.
     
  4. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    And don't forget that the Turks had just lost their empire the last time they invovled themselves with the Germans as one of the Central Powers. They hadn't been able to stop fighting the Greeks until the mid to late twenties, and a new peace treaty was agreed to. The Turks had NO insentive to side with the Nazis, besides they were making money selling their material to both sides, and the Germans couldn't buy it all with gold and they had no credit as the war got going.

    At one point the Americans tried to convince the Turks not to sell their chromium to the Germans, the Turks asked us if we would buy it all, and since we had our own internal supply we declined. They kept selling both nickel and chrome to the Germans. As well as tobacco, cotton, and wheat.

    The Turks had no reason at all to throw their lot in with the Nazis.
     
  5. efestos

    efestos Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    26
    June 1940. The British situation appears hopeless, Hitler promises whatever the spaniards an the turkish ask for (in false) Franco allows the passage of a Nazi division to take Gibraltar. The Turks allow the passage of the Panzer to recover IRAQ. (View map of Turkish Railways in this forum came to Kirkuk). ... Hitler postponed Barbarossa?

    Famine in Spain, no fuel for tractors or trucks, there are no imports of wheat, Hitler is not fulfilling its promises to ensure supplies ... 1942 - 1943 ... Torch?
     
  6. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    6,162
    Likes Received:
    915
    Location:
    Phoenix Arizona
    Turkey had every reason to stay out of the war and particularly to stay out of being a German ally. The US and Britain both plied Turkey with substancial amounts of military aid while Germany gave essentially none. Turkey also recognized that between the Soviet Union and the British held Middle East they were caught in a vice so far as fighting a war. There was nothing to gain for Turkey in siding with Germany.
    As for Spain, the country was debilitated from its recent civil war. The military was fairly well beat up as a result. Spain would have brought the fall of Gibralter but on the down side it would also have cut Germany off from a source of supply via its neutral status along with about 1500 more miles of coastline to defend against invasion. What does Spain gain from entering the war? Obviously, the supply situation would have made starvation and privation far more widespread. The threat of invasion would have required German and Italian help and that would have had some negative reprecussions of its own as these troops might be seen as occupiers rather than just allies.
    This is another one of those "An allied country selflessly enters the war for the benefit of Germany scenarios." It is like Japan attacking Russia. It helps the Germans but dooms Japan for no gain.
     
  7. freebird

    freebird Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    55
    Good points TA.
    To expand on Spain a bit:
    Spain: First thing, why would Spain want to get involved with the war, and what would it cost them? Franco was no dummy and took it all into consideration. Control of the fortress Gibraltar is mostly a prestige thing, the rock produces nothing, and Spain has other ports.
    However, Spain would definately expect to lose it's African colonies (Rio Muni, Fernando Po) and very likely would lose the Canaries as well. Neither Spain nor Germany had the ability to challenge British sea power, and Spain's colonies were not well defended in 40/41.
    Spain also depends on imported food & oil, where would they get these if Britian adds Spain to the blocade?
    What benefit would the KM & RM get from transit past Gibraltar? Both the Germans & Italians only have a couple of capital ships operational, and removing them from either the Med or the Atlantic would abandon the potential threat to the blockading forces.

    Look at the situation in at the very beginning of 1941. (as Franco must have done)
    There is not much to gain, but a huge possible downside, which is why Franco made the demands on Hitler that he did.

    http://www.ww2f.com/what-if-europea...ic/32362-yes-no-germans-take-gibralter-3.html

    Both Tobruk (1941) & Sevastopol (41/42) held out for 8 or 9 months, Gibraltar could be expected to hold out for a few months at least. (It was far better defensive terrain than Tobruk and far better equipped)
    There are some problems that the Axis would have.
    1.) The seige of Sevastopol involved huge railway guns, and huge quantities of guns, supplies & ammo to prepare for the assault. In 1940/41 Spain does not have Standard Gauge, but uses Iberian Gauge, which would require the Germans to re-gauge the Spanish railways to allow passage of the seige guns. This would tie up the German railway engineers, delaying the work on preparing for Barbarossa. (Eastern Polish railways were Russian gauge)
    2.) The effort would likely take 3 or 4 German divisions, and large quantities of guns, aircraft & supplies, at at time when Hitler had ordered a major offensive in the Balkans. The British forces involved wouldn't subtract from the forces in the Balkans & Eastern Med, but any German forces (especially air) certainly would.
    3.) If the British occupy the Canaries & perhaps tangier, it provides a far better base for the RAF, Coastal Command ASW efforts & RN u-boat patrols. The net result would be a less effective u-boat result on the UK-Freetown route
     
  8. efestos

    efestos Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    26
    Well, Hitler tought to promise (in false) to give such a good part of the North African French empire. He didn´t because he was affraid of possible leaks from Spain.

    In Hendaya conference Franco asked for suplies... in advance. Germany couldn´t afford it. So there was no way to get the plenty colaboration of Spain.
     
  9. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,322
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Location:
    Michigan
    I seem to recall that Spain was getting food from the US at very reasonable prices and could sell things like Tungsten at considerably over the prewar price as the US and Britain would buy it to keep it out of German hands. Franco could play both sides for resources by staying out. Get in and he was dependent on one side and subject to the unwanted "attentions" of the other.
     
  10. fredleander

    fredleander Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2011
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    3
    First and foremost the road to Gibraltar would have been opened up for the Germans. The plan of their rather heavy-handed Operation Felix (end of 1940) was based on the use of Spanish roads and railway transport. Also some Spanish artillery cooperation. In this period Gibraltar did not have an operational airport and the fortress was only manned with 4 under-strength battalions. Spanish bases would have been the best assets the Spanish could offer.

    Even if an assault was not carried out on Gibraltar the British would have been denied the use of the port.

    As for Turkey this would have given Luftwaffe bases closer to the Suez Canal and the oilfields in Iraq. Imagine a Turkish advance into southern Soviet in connection with the German plan "Blue" in 1942......
     
  11. von_noobie

    von_noobie Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    73
    The best I see the Turks and Spanish being able to give is there limited naval capacity, and airforces, And maybe a Corps or 2 each of troops. Spanish location allows for the taking of Gibraltar, Which had the Italian navy lacked radar and suffered from fuel shortages they would have been able to be used to harass allied convoys in the Atlantic and from Gibralter makes it Very difficult to do the Centre and Eastern task force landings of Operation Torch. They may just go ahead with the landings using only Western task force.. But then that adds greater strain on supplies not being able to use ports closer to the front, They will suffer from what Rommel suffered. As for Turkey, Well if they joined from the get go, Then there would be no immediate threat from Russia, And any threat from British/Commonwealth forces in the Mid East would be limited, They were stretched pretty thin in those early days after the fall of France. So with limited German aid (no more then 1 Corps) the Mid East would start to fall, Between many of the natives wanting the British/French gone and a German friendly Iran it would be possible. In the end either the British hold on the Suez canal, Which will be a major feat if they did, Or they play the smart card and pull back, The Med wasnt used for supply convoys to feed GB, So no need to hold the Suez canal with extreme losses, I see them more likely pulling back into the Horn of Africa, Between dominion navies and there fleet units in that area they would be able to effectively bottle up the Italian fleet. As for when the war with Russia came around, Well, I think the Germans might be inclined to base some motorized/paratrooper formations in Turkey to jump across the border and secure the Caucasus early on, Less distance to travel, and bigger chance of taking them with out the Russians first destroying them.

    So Spain and Turkey would early on be benificial, But once the US came into play or Russia recovered (may take longer then history shows us) they would be of little to no use.
     
  12. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    Let us not forget that the Turks were highly unlikely to join with the Germans, the last time they did it they lost their empire. They (Turkey) was also making a bundle selling to both sides rather than just one (Germany), they were the main supply for the Chrome, tobacco, cotton, and a couple of other alloy materials for the Nazi war machine. But they were also selling the same stuff to the allies.

    The Spanish were dependent on the west for food, and fuel. If they threw their lot in with Germany wholeheartedly they would be basically cutting their own throats.
     
  13. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2009
    Messages:
    4,997
    Likes Received:
    237
    This has been debated earlier,but,Afaics,for a lot of reasons (economical,....) the armed forces of Spain and Turkey were not capable to operate outside their territory,and would thus be of no use for the Germans :they only would be an other burden for Germany .
    Saying that the Germans could send motorized units through Turkey (they had no airborne units available)to the border with the SU,is having a bad knowledge of the distances /Berlin-Istanbul:1600 km;Istanbul to the border with the SU :1200 km.It also is ignoring the bad railway situation in the Balkans,and the" inexistance "of the turkish railways :there was no railway (or an other ) bridge across the Bosporus,only one railway line was going to the border with the SU,and,even in 1951 (with a lot of Marshall help),there was only 61 km of double track railway.
    IMHO,it would be impossible for the Germans to transit even one division through Turkey .
    Besides:why would they send mobile units to Turkey ? Every unit sent to Turkey would mean an unit less on the German-Russian border in june 1941.
     
  14. von_noobie

    von_noobie Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    73
    So they would only provide the benefit of location, But here is a question, Out of Italy, Turkey and Spain, If you could have one of them as an ally.. Who would it be? =]
     
  15. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,322
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Location:
    Michigan
    Spain seeds the Canaries to Britain and opens up a lot of coast line to protect while not being able to contribute much more than manpower to the cause while requireing food and fuel to sustain. Defintily not Spain.

    Italy has the strongest military but is also potentially the best conduit of external resources if she remainds neutral.

    Turkey is little better positoned than Spain. Probably a bit stronger military but mostly infantry again. It would provide the potential for another front vs the Soviets but one that is at the long end of a marginal log support system and requires offensive operations in mountainous terrain. It allows for some threats to Palastine and Iraq but that cuts both ways.

    IMO opinion it comes down to either Italy or none of the above.
     
  16. Victor Gomez

    Victor Gomez Ace

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    115
    I see these speculations and I think you must understand the personality of Hitler to know it doesn't matter who allied with him to attack others for what he wanted........there is one thing that is always true--Hitler would always weigh his personal interests for Germany to be more important than any other ally and it would only be a matter of time before he would start in digesting the allies holdings to get something more out of the situation. Look what he did to the English whom he thought of as being very much like Germany in stature....but they stood between him and what he wanted therefore you can now understand what he would do with his allies. Only in this light can you consider what other allies would have meant for Germany....just an extension of the same disaster in a different direction.
     
  17. Erich Raeder

    Erich Raeder Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is how I think the war would go If Spain and Turkey joined Axis
    Spain
    Spain if they did enter the war it would probably have been after the fall of France and the Hendaye meeting in October 1940 between Hitler and Franco. The Germans would have to give the Spanish military equipment, grain and fuel in order to get Spain to enter the war. When Spain did enter the war German troops would have been allowed access to Spain and Operation Felix, the attack on Gibraltar, would have been launched. Gibraltar probably would have been taken by the Axis forces. The British would be cut off from the Mediterranean and Malta would soon after surrender due to being under supplied and cut off. Some Spanish troops would probably be sent to North Africa, but I still don’t think Axis forces would be able to take Egypt. The Blue legion probably still would have been sent to Russia in 1941.
    The Germans would also have set up air bases on Azores, Cape Verde and Canary Islands. The bases on Azores could be used to prey on Atlantic convoys and maybe even bomb the United States east coast. The bases on Cape Verde and the Canary Islands could be used to attack Freetown Sierra Leon and the convoys coming in that direction. Spanish ports like Cadiz also would have provided the Germans with safe havens for their U-Boats and Surface raiders.
    The Canary Islands would probably have been taken by the Allies in 1942 prior to Operation Torch. The Allies in July or August 1944 after taking North Africa, Sicily, Southern Italy and having landed in Normandy may have instead of launching Operation Dragoon, the invasion of Southern France, decide to invade Spain. The Allies could have landed in Portugal, like the British did in the Napoleonic Wars, and then moved into Spain or taken a more direct route. The Germans in response to Allied landings in the Iberian Peninsula could have sent the 2[SUP]nd [/SUP]SS division the 11[SUP]th[/SUP] Panzer Division and 9[SUP]th[/SUP] Panzer Division, all of which are in Southern France in summer 1944, into Spain. By the September or October Spain probably would have been knocked out of the war.
    Turkey
    If Turkey had of entered the war prior to Operation Barbarossa they may have had a significant impact on the campaign. They could either support the Siege of Sevastopol or the 1942 German Summer offensive. The Turks probably also could have threatened the Syria, Iraq or the Caucuses. Ultimately I think the Turks would have shown for peace some where in 1943 after Stalingrad.

    Overall the war still ends in 1945
     
  18. paulb

    paulb Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Had Spain entered into the war, Britain would have most likely lost one of it's most important Mediteranean bases in Gibralter. As a result, Malta may have been much more difficult to defend. Egypt would have been more isolated as a result with almost all supplies having to be brought in via the Suez. Britain had many colonies in the East African and Middle East area, but the whole lot would have felt the isolation if the Iberian Peninsula and Gibralter in particular were in Axis hands. Once the Americans came into the war, their primary access to North Africa was via the straits of Gibralter. A trip through the Pacific and Indian Oceans for the US would have extended their supply lines considerably. Australia may have had far more strategic value in this scenario as a stopover on the supply route.

    Turkey would then have had a far better prospect of taking the North African and Middle Eastern possessions from Britain.

    In short, Spain would have been a far worse prospect than Turkey alone, but both could have resulted in a completely different outcome in North Africa.
     
  19. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    73
    Spain was even worse off then the Italians as far as its army, it was still trying to recover from its civil war, and would have been just as big a drain of Germany. Turkey was not ready either, but it is more interesting if Germany had been willing to forgo Barbarossa, since the manpower requirements to go into the middle east would have prevented both. The main issue is the logistics would have been daunting if not impossible since Turkey had a limited rail and no worthy road system.
     
  20. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,985
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    The Tsars had always aimed to reached the Mediteranean , especially during the 19th century and after. They had come pretty close until the Soviets took over and no doubt that if the Russian had no suffered from the October Revolution, they may have had claims for this area in 1918 . The idea of the sea access expansion did not stop in 1917 and Soviet imperialism actually emphasized this idea of making their central Asia possession fully Russian by assimilating non Russian speaking population by force (deportation of Tatars Kazakstan for instance) and strictly restricting locals to Worship their religion (in this case Islam).

    The Turks were fully aware that loosing another war would give the Soviets a pretext to claim an access to the Mediteranean. (This was by the way one of the main reasons why Churchill interfered in Greece in 1945 when it was dangeroulsy leaning towards the Communist side)

    . The Buglarians had also lost their access to the Mediteranean in WWI and the Turks themselves had lost many Islands to the Greeks or the Italians (Rhodes for example).

    With all these antecedents and their fragile borders near the Soviet Empire (Turkmenistan/Kurdistan region), the Turks had much to loose and little to gain by siding with the Germans. Having German as an economical partner was a wiser choice for Turkey.
     

Share This Page